37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 636559 |
Time | |
Date | 200411 |
Day | Mon |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | intersection : dandy |
State Reference | NJ |
Altitude | msl single value : 2000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : n90.tracon |
Operator | general aviation : corporate |
Make Model Name | Learjet 60 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Navigation In Use | ils localizer & glide slope : 6 |
Flight Phase | descent : approach descent : intermediate altitude |
Route In Use | approach : instrument precision arrival : on vectors |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : corporate |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : multi engine pilot : instrument pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 55 flight time total : 5900 flight time type : 35 |
ASRS Report | 636559 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : corporate |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : published procedure |
Independent Detector | atc equipment other atc equipment : radar/ mode c other controllera other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued advisory none taken : insufficient time |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
We were flying in VMC conditions and were given vectors by new york approach to intercept the localizer for runway 6 at teb. We were then told to maintain 2000 ft and maintain 180 KTS to dandy intersection. We were not cleared for the approach until 2-3 mi before dandy. At this point we had to finish the before landing checklist then turned back to the approach plate. We (the captain and I) quickly discussed if we should quickly descend to 1500 ft as is stated on the plate. I was confused, however, because the controller left us at 2000 ft and did not clear us for the approach until just before dandy. If this were a mandatory crossing restr, I thought that the controller would have descended us to 1500 ft earlier, or cleared us for the approach much further out. As it stood last night, the controller gave us less than 1 min to configure the airplane and descend to 1500 ft. If he had cleared us for the approach earlier or given us 1500 ft to begin with, this would not have been a problem. Just before dandy the controller called us and told us we should be at 1500 ft. I responded that we had just been cleared for the approach. He responded with a 'whatever' (his exact words). I assume with that statement that he was not too concerned. 99.9% of all approachs do not have mandatory listed on the approach plate. If this is so important, then the controller needs to descend us to 1500 ft and clear us for the approach or clear us for the approach at vings intersection. When flying into very congested airspace where it is very difficult to ask a question I think the controller should be much more proactive in clearing crews for the approach earlier or getting them to 1500 ft.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: FLT CREW REPORTS THAT A CTLR MAKES AN INAPPROPRIATE REMARK TO AN LJ60 CREW ON AN ILS APCH INTO TEB CONCERNING A MANDATORY XING RESTR.
Narrative: WE WERE FLYING IN VMC CONDITIONS AND WERE GIVEN VECTORS BY NEW YORK APCH TO INTERCEPT THE LOC FOR RWY 6 AT TEB. WE WERE THEN TOLD TO MAINTAIN 2000 FT AND MAINTAIN 180 KTS TO DANDY INTXN. WE WERE NOT CLRED FOR THE APCH UNTIL 2-3 MI BEFORE DANDY. AT THIS POINT WE HAD TO FINISH THE BEFORE LNDG CHKLIST THEN TURNED BACK TO THE APCH PLATE. WE (THE CAPT AND I) QUICKLY DISCUSSED IF WE SHOULD QUICKLY DSND TO 1500 FT AS IS STATED ON THE PLATE. I WAS CONFUSED, HOWEVER, BECAUSE THE CTLR LEFT US AT 2000 FT AND DID NOT CLR US FOR THE APCH UNTIL JUST BEFORE DANDY. IF THIS WERE A MANDATORY XING RESTR, I THOUGHT THAT THE CTLR WOULD HAVE DSNDED US TO 1500 FT EARLIER, OR CLRED US FOR THE APCH MUCH FURTHER OUT. AS IT STOOD LAST NIGHT, THE CTLR GAVE US LESS THAN 1 MIN TO CONFIGURE THE AIRPLANE AND DSND TO 1500 FT. IF HE HAD CLRED US FOR THE APCH EARLIER OR GIVEN US 1500 FT TO BEGIN WITH, THIS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PROB. JUST BEFORE DANDY THE CTLR CALLED US AND TOLD US WE SHOULD BE AT 1500 FT. I RESPONDED THAT WE HAD JUST BEEN CLRED FOR THE APCH. HE RESPONDED WITH A 'WHATEVER' (HIS EXACT WORDS). I ASSUME WITH THAT STATEMENT THAT HE WAS NOT TOO CONCERNED. 99.9% OF ALL APCHS DO NOT HAVE MANDATORY LISTED ON THE APCH PLATE. IF THIS IS SO IMPORTANT, THEN THE CTLR NEEDS TO DSND US TO 1500 FT AND CLR US FOR THE APCH OR CLR US FOR THE APCH AT VINGS INTXN. WHEN FLYING INTO VERY CONGESTED AIRSPACE WHERE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ASK A QUESTION I THINK THE CTLR SHOULD BE MUCH MORE PROACTIVE IN CLRING CREWS FOR THE APCH EARLIER OR GETTING THEM TO 1500 FT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.