37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 637874 |
Time | |
Date | 200411 |
Day | Thu |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax.airport |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl single value : 4000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sct.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Commercial Fixed Wing |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | ils localizer & glide slope : 25r other vortac |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sct.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Airbus Industrie Undifferentiated or Other Model |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | ils localizer & glide slope : 25l |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : multi engine pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 11600 flight time type : 5400 |
ASRS Report | 637874 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : anomaly accepted |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
Improper/inappropriate radar controller instructions/clearance operating an SF340. Flight san-lax. Overhead to northwest of the seal beach VOR (sli) contacted socal approach on 124.9. Controller asked us to look at 11-12 O'clock position for an airbus and to call it in sight. Acquired it and called visual on the aircraft and the lax airport. Controller: 'SF340, the airbus is going to runway 25L, you're cleared the visual approach to runway 25R, pull up alongside and do not pass.' this is the second time in 2 weeks have heard socal on the south complex (runway 25L&right) on frequency 124.9 use this clearance/instruction. Have never heard it given to a large aircraft, only to regional turboprops. This terminology was used occasionally by 124.9 and the lax north complex 128.5 in yrs past. It is a clearance for me to basically fly formation while in part 121 operations. I have previously reported it via NASA ASRS and the terminology changed to 'keep the speed up, but don't pass him' and I would fly staggered offset, but 'pull up alongside.' I have seen crews fly on the wing abeam the other aircraft. Problem: who is the formation leader? Has there been a formation briefing? If the airbus goes around and then I'm given a go around by tower or self-initiate one myself, who is responsible for wake turbulence separation/safe separation, etc? Solution: have socal cease using this terminology/clearance as a way of accommodating increased arrival rate.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: SF34 FLT CREW LNDG LAX RWY 25R EXPRESSED CONCERN REGARDING ATC PHRASEOLOGY USED DURING VISUAL SIDE-BY APCH PROCS.
Narrative: IMPROPER/INAPPROPRIATE RADAR CTLR INSTRUCTIONS/CLRNC OPERATING AN SF340. FLT SAN-LAX. OVERHEAD TO NW OF THE SEAL BEACH VOR (SLI) CONTACTED SOCAL APCH ON 124.9. CTLR ASKED US TO LOOK AT 11-12 O'CLOCK POS FOR AN AIRBUS AND TO CALL IT IN SIGHT. ACQUIRED IT AND CALLED VISUAL ON THE ACFT AND THE LAX ARPT. CTLR: 'SF340, THE AIRBUS IS GOING TO RWY 25L, YOU'RE CLRED THE VISUAL APCH TO RWY 25R, PULL UP ALONGSIDE AND DO NOT PASS.' THIS IS THE SECOND TIME IN 2 WKS HAVE HEARD SOCAL ON THE S COMPLEX (RWY 25L&R) ON FREQ 124.9 USE THIS CLRNC/INSTRUCTION. HAVE NEVER HEARD IT GIVEN TO A LARGE ACFT, ONLY TO REGIONAL TURBOPROPS. THIS TERMINOLOGY WAS USED OCCASIONALLY BY 124.9 AND THE LAX N COMPLEX 128.5 IN YRS PAST. IT IS A CLRNC FOR ME TO BASICALLY FLY FORMATION WHILE IN PART 121 OPS. I HAVE PREVIOUSLY RPTED IT VIA NASA ASRS AND THE TERMINOLOGY CHANGED TO 'KEEP THE SPD UP, BUT DON'T PASS HIM' AND I WOULD FLY STAGGERED OFFSET, BUT 'PULL UP ALONGSIDE.' I HAVE SEEN CREWS FLY ON THE WING ABEAM THE OTHER ACFT. PROB: WHO IS THE FORMATION LEADER? HAS THERE BEEN A FORMATION BRIEFING? IF THE AIRBUS GOES AROUND AND THEN I'M GIVEN A GAR BY TWR OR SELF-INITIATE ONE MYSELF, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WAKE TURB SEPARATION/SAFE SEPARATION, ETC? SOLUTION: HAVE SOCAL CEASE USING THIS TERMINOLOGY/CLRNC AS A WAY OF ACCOMMODATING INCREASED ARR RATE.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.