B737-800 flight crew disputes mia ATCT local controller's clearance for takeoff on runway 8R when pr...

Attributes
ACN	651112
Time
Date	200503
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	airport : mia.airport
State Reference	FL
Altitude	agl single value : 0
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B737-800
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	ground : takeoff roll ground : holding
Flight Plan	IFR
Aircraft 2
Controlling Facilities	tower : mia.tower
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B747 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	ground : taxi ground : holding
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
ASRS Report	651112
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Events
Anomaly	conflict : ground critical incursion : runway non adherence : far non adherence : published procedure
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : anomaly accepted
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Problem Areas	Airport ATC Human Performance Flight Crew Human Performance
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Operational Error

Narrative:

As we were cleared onto the runway 8R at mia and then cleared for takeoff; the previous flight to takeoff; aircraft Z; told tower that the aircraft Y; a 747; which had just landed before his takeoff was 'not clear of the runway.' we could see the 747 at a stop on M10; perpendicular to the runway and the tail relatively near the edge. Tower then came on the radio and for almost one minute announced over and over that 'he was clear;' 'we have sensors that tell us he is clear' and such. We then clarified with tower that he had cleared us for takeoff. Tower confirmed that we were cleared. The 747 had not moved. What we saw was the 747 with the rear gear just over the hold line (facing away from the runway) and at least 50 ft or more of the aircraft on the runway side of the hold line. We don't think the tail was over the edge line for the runway. At cruise; we contacted aircraft Z and discussed what we saw. Our chart manuals call the hold short line the edge of the 'runway safety zone.' after landing; the captain called mia tower who explained that they believe that going away from the runway an aircraft can be 'over the line;' but going towards the runway; nothing can be over the line. This was normal operations for them. In the last week; I've asked many pilots who all agree we are trained to believe the hold line is sacred. From our training we all believe that the 747 was 'not clear of the runway.' there is never any difference published in any FAA manual about direction of travel. With runway incursion a 'hot issue' is mia tower right? Can the whole back end of a 747 overhang the hold line on the runway side and still be legal?

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: B737-800 FLT CREW DISPUTES MIA ATCT LCL CTLR'S CLRNC FOR TKOF ON RWY 8R WHEN PRECEDING LNDG B747 WAS STOPPED WITH AFT HALF OF ACFT STILL ON RWY SIDE OF HOLD LINE AT EXIT M10.

Narrative: AS WE WERE CLRED ONTO THE RWY 8R AT MIA AND THEN CLRED FOR TKOF; THE PREVIOUS FLT TO TKOF; ACFT Z; TOLD TWR THAT THE ACFT Y; A 747; WHICH HAD JUST LANDED BEFORE HIS TKOF WAS 'NOT CLR OF THE RWY.' WE COULD SEE THE 747 AT A STOP ON M10; PERPENDICULAR TO THE RWY AND THE TAIL RELATIVELY NEAR THE EDGE. TWR THEN CAME ON THE RADIO AND FOR ALMOST ONE MINUTE ANNOUNCED OVER AND OVER THAT 'HE WAS CLR;' 'WE HAVE SENSORS THAT TELL US HE IS CLR' AND SUCH. WE THEN CLARIFIED WITH TWR THAT HE HAD CLRED US FOR TKOF. TWR CONFIRMED THAT WE WERE CLRED. THE 747 HAD NOT MOVED. WHAT WE SAW WAS THE 747 WITH THE REAR GEAR JUST OVER THE HOLD LINE (FACING AWAY FROM THE RWY) AND AT LEAST 50 FT OR MORE OF THE ACFT ON THE RWY SIDE OF THE HOLD LINE. WE DON'T THINK THE TAIL WAS OVER THE EDGE LINE FOR THE RWY. AT CRUISE; WE CONTACTED ACFT Z AND DISCUSSED WHAT WE SAW. OUR CHART MANUALS CALL THE HOLD SHORT LINE THE EDGE OF THE 'RWY SAFETY ZONE.' AFTER LNDG; THE CAPT CALLED MIA TWR WHO EXPLAINED THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT GOING AWAY FROM THE RWY AN ACFT CAN BE 'OVER THE LINE;' BUT GOING TOWARDS THE RWY; NOTHING CAN BE OVER THE LINE. THIS WAS NORMAL OPS FOR THEM. IN THE LAST WEEK; I'VE ASKED MANY PLTS WHO ALL AGREE WE ARE TRAINED TO BELIEVE THE HOLD LINE IS SACRED. FROM OUR TRAINING WE ALL BELIEVE THAT THE 747 WAS 'NOT CLR OF THE RWY.' THERE IS NEVER ANY DIFFERENCE PUBLISHED IN ANY FAA MANUAL ABOUT DIRECTION OF TRAVEL. WITH RWY INCURSION A 'HOT ISSUE' IS MIA TWR RIGHT? CAN THE WHOLE BACK END OF A 747 OVERHANG THE HOLD LINE ON THE RWY SIDE AND STILL BE LEGAL?

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

B737-800 flight crew disputes mia ATCT local controller's clearance for takeoff on runway 8R when preceding landing B747 was stopped with aft half of aircraft still on runway side of hold line at exit M10.