37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 704627 |
Time | |
Date | 200607 |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | intersection : civet |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 17000 msl bound upper : 14000 |
Environment | |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sct.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B757-200 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | other |
Flight Phase | descent : vacating altitude |
Route In Use | arrival star : civet.5 |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 242 flight time total : 8531 flight time type : 1193 |
ASRS Report | 704627 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : clearance non adherence : far non adherence : published procedure |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : unable |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Narrative:
We had joined the civet 5 arrival into lax and were cleared to descend via the arrival at gramm. At this point; I set 15000 ft in the MCP and informed the captain I would be 'off' to seat the passenger which had not been done. (During the 5 hour flight to lax it was never overtly said but was nonetheless made very clear to me that turning on and off the seatbelt sign was not for me to do; but at this point in the flight I really couldn't wait any longer to put the passenger in their seats. We were only; as I read to them in my brief; 13 mins from touchdown.) at this point I was aware we were high on the arrival but not really bad and nothing that couldn't be fixed; as I was briefing the passenger I was watching us on the VNAV path get farther away from where we should have been. After my PA announcement; I came back 'on' with the captain and said to him we are high we need to descend. This statement didn't elicit a response; so I became more urgent and said we need to be below 15000 ft at civet in 3 mi (at this point we were at 17000 ft). I then said push forward we need to go down now. At this point the captain began screaming do not try to fly the plane from there; and said to set the next altitude which I set at 12000 ft. This made things worse because he didn't want 12000 ft set since we had not actually passed civet; this was definitely what I would have wanted and assumed that he did also since we were so insanely high at this point setting the 14000 ft minimum which we couldn't make in our wildest dreams just didn't seem to make sense. This has been my experience in lax and other cities that when a fix was assured we set the next altitude for the next fix down the line in this case eddso at 12000 ft. This is what everyone else who I have flown with has done and what I obviously did. He then screamed louder; set the correct altitude; and by the time I figured out what he wanted set; I put 14000 ft in the window and dialed it right back to 12000 ft because we had passed civet at at least 15500 ft. After completing the parking check; he screamed about setting the proper altitude for a while; never acknowledging that we were high at the civet restr. When he was finished; I told him I would like to explain what I was thinking and what my point of view was and told him he didn't have to listen if he didn't want to but that I did want to explain. At this point he said something nasty and walked out of the cockpit. I have never before in my career been involved in anything like this and hope that it never happens again.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: A B757-200 FO RPTS HIS CAPT'S IRATE RESPONSE WHEN THE FO TOLD HIM THAT HE WOULD MISS A CIVET ALT CONSTRAINT AND DIRECTED APPLYING FORWARD YOKE PRESSURE.
Narrative: WE HAD JOINED THE CIVET 5 ARR INTO LAX AND WERE CLRED TO DSND VIA THE ARR AT GRAMM. AT THIS POINT; I SET 15000 FT IN THE MCP AND INFORMED THE CAPT I WOULD BE 'OFF' TO SEAT THE PAX WHICH HAD NOT BEEN DONE. (DURING THE 5 HR FLT TO LAX IT WAS NEVER OVERTLY SAID BUT WAS NONETHELESS MADE VERY CLR TO ME THAT TURNING ON AND OFF THE SEATBELT SIGN WAS NOT FOR ME TO DO; BUT AT THIS POINT IN THE FLT I REALLY COULDN'T WAIT ANY LONGER TO PUT THE PAX IN THEIR SEATS. WE WERE ONLY; AS I READ TO THEM IN MY BRIEF; 13 MINS FROM TOUCHDOWN.) AT THIS POINT I WAS AWARE WE WERE HIGH ON THE ARR BUT NOT REALLY BAD AND NOTHING THAT COULDN'T BE FIXED; AS I WAS BRIEFING THE PAX I WAS WATCHING US ON THE VNAV PATH GET FARTHER AWAY FROM WHERE WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN. AFTER MY PA ANNOUNCEMENT; I CAME BACK 'ON' WITH THE CAPT AND SAID TO HIM WE ARE HIGH WE NEED TO DSND. THIS STATEMENT DIDN'T ELICIT A RESPONSE; SO I BECAME MORE URGENT AND SAID WE NEED TO BE BELOW 15000 FT AT CIVET IN 3 MI (AT THIS POINT WE WERE AT 17000 FT). I THEN SAID PUSH FORWARD WE NEED TO GO DOWN NOW. AT THIS POINT THE CAPT BEGAN SCREAMING DO NOT TRY TO FLY THE PLANE FROM THERE; AND SAID TO SET THE NEXT ALT WHICH I SET AT 12000 FT. THIS MADE THINGS WORSE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT 12000 FT SET SINCE WE HAD NOT ACTUALLY PASSED CIVET; THIS WAS DEFINITELY WHAT I WOULD HAVE WANTED AND ASSUMED THAT HE DID ALSO SINCE WE WERE SO INSANELY HIGH AT THIS POINT SETTING THE 14000 FT MINIMUM WHICH WE COULDN'T MAKE IN OUR WILDEST DREAMS JUST DIDN'T SEEM TO MAKE SENSE. THIS HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE IN LAX AND OTHER CITIES THAT WHEN A FIX WAS ASSURED WE SET THE NEXT ALT FOR THE NEXT FIX DOWN THE LINE IN THIS CASE EDDSO AT 12000 FT. THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE ELSE WHO I HAVE FLOWN WITH HAS DONE AND WHAT I OBVIOUSLY DID. HE THEN SCREAMED LOUDER; SET THE CORRECT ALT; AND BY THE TIME I FIGURED OUT WHAT HE WANTED SET; I PUT 14000 FT IN THE WINDOW AND DIALED IT RIGHT BACK TO 12000 FT BECAUSE WE HAD PASSED CIVET AT AT LEAST 15500 FT. AFTER COMPLETING THE PARKING CHK; HE SCREAMED ABOUT SETTING THE PROPER ALT FOR A WHILE; NEVER ACKNOWLEDGING THAT WE WERE HIGH AT THE CIVET RESTR. WHEN HE WAS FINISHED; I TOLD HIM I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLAIN WHAT I WAS THINKING AND WHAT MY POINT OF VIEW WAS AND TOLD HIM HE DIDN'T HAVE TO LISTEN IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO BUT THAT I DID WANT TO EXPLAIN. AT THIS POINT HE SAID SOMETHING NASTY AND WALKED OUT OF THE COCKPIT. I HAVE NEVER BEFORE IN MY CAREER BEEN INVOLVED IN ANYTHING LIKE THIS AND HOPE THAT IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.