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Attributes | |
ACN | 740468 |
Time | |
Date | 200706 |
Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : las.airport |
State Reference | NV |
Altitude | msl single value : 10700 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : l30.tracon tower : lax.tower |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | MD-82 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Route In Use | arrival star : grnpa |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : l30.tracon |
Operator | general aviation : personal |
Make Model Name | Small Aircraft |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Flight Plan | VFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
ASRS Report | 740468 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
ASRS Report | 740472 |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne critical |
Independent Detector | aircraft equipment : tcas other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | flight crew : took evasive action |
Miss Distance | horizontal : 0 vertical : 500 |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | FAA Environmental Factor Aircraft Airspace Structure |
Primary Problem | Aircraft |
Narrative:
No TA from either controller. Difficulty checking on with the final controller due to frequency congestion. Setting sun directly in front of us. Event occurred southwest of the luxor intersection on the grnpa arrival while being handed off from the initial approach controller to the final controller. We had a TCAS TA followed by an RA with a single engine airplane who apparently was VFR. We had been cleared to 8000 ft and had just been given the handoff to the las vegas final controller when traffic appeared on the TCAS about 3 mi ahead and 1200 ft below us (at 9500 ft MSL). We were at flight idle descending at 250 KTS and about 1700 FPM. About 1 second later we received a 'monitor vertical speed' warning. The first officer was flying and disconnected the autoplt and immediately began reducing our descent and stood the power levers up to approximately the takeoff position in an attempt to level off 500 ft above the traffic. The traffic now was just about to pass under us going the opposite direction. The engines took about 7-8 seconds to spool which is an unusually long time and that caused airspeed to bleed off as we were trying to level at 500 ft above the traffic. We then received a climb RA just before the engines spooled at about 230 KTS which also was slat extension speed. The climb was delayed a couple of seconds until we got engine spool as we felt we could not raise the pitch any further due to airspeed decay. Recovery continued until we were about 1000 ft above the other aircraft. The first officer reported to me he had seen a single engine aircraft pass under us just as the engines spooled. I am not sure whether we came closer than 500 ft or not. We were both looking into a setting sun and received no TA from ATC. I reported to ATC that we had responded to an RA and had to climb. This event was a closer encounter than it should have been due to slow spooling engines. I have since learned this aircraft has been written up for this problem before; and then cleared with no action taken because there isn't any required spool-up time in the maintenance manual. If we did get closer than 500 ft; I strongly believe it was due to the poor performance of the engines on this particular airplane. The TCAS information says we will be. I do not see how we can literally have a TCAS command that we can not instantly comply with due to engine spool parameters that are apparently outside of TCAS parameters.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MD83 FLT CREW DESCENDING VIA STAR; OBSERVED TFC BELOW ON TCAS; RESULTING IN 'CLIMB' RA. ENGINES WERE SLOW SPOOLING FROM IDLE AND TFC PASSED 500 FT BELOW ACFT.
Narrative: NO TA FROM EITHER CTLR. DIFFICULTY CHKING ON WITH THE FINAL CTLR DUE TO FREQ CONGESTION. SETTING SUN DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF US. EVENT OCCURRED SW OF THE LUXOR INTXN ON THE GRNPA ARR WHILE BEING HANDED OFF FROM THE INITIAL APCH CTLR TO THE FINAL CTLR. WE HAD A TCAS TA FOLLOWED BY AN RA WITH A SINGLE ENG AIRPLANE WHO APPARENTLY WAS VFR. WE HAD BEEN CLRED TO 8000 FT AND HAD JUST BEEN GIVEN THE HDOF TO THE LAS VEGAS FINAL CTLR WHEN TFC APPEARED ON THE TCAS ABOUT 3 MI AHEAD AND 1200 FT BELOW US (AT 9500 FT MSL). WE WERE AT FLT IDLE DSNDING AT 250 KTS AND ABOUT 1700 FPM. ABOUT 1 SECOND LATER WE RECEIVED A 'MONITOR VERT SPD' WARNING. THE FO WAS FLYING AND DISCONNECTED THE AUTOPLT AND IMMEDIATELY BEGAN REDUCING OUR DSCNT AND STOOD THE PWR LEVERS UP TO APPROX THE TKOF POS IN AN ATTEMPT TO LEVEL OFF 500 FT ABOVE THE TFC. THE TFC NOW WAS JUST ABOUT TO PASS UNDER US GOING THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. THE ENGS TOOK ABOUT 7-8 SECONDS TO SPOOL WHICH IS AN UNUSUALLY LONG TIME AND THAT CAUSED AIRSPD TO BLEED OFF AS WE WERE TRYING TO LEVEL AT 500 FT ABOVE THE TFC. WE THEN RECEIVED A CLB RA JUST BEFORE THE ENGS SPOOLED AT ABOUT 230 KTS WHICH ALSO WAS SLAT EXTENSION SPD. THE CLB WAS DELAYED A COUPLE OF SECONDS UNTIL WE GOT ENG SPOOL AS WE FELT WE COULD NOT RAISE THE PITCH ANY FURTHER DUE TO AIRSPD DECAY. RECOVERY CONTINUED UNTIL WE WERE ABOUT 1000 FT ABOVE THE OTHER ACFT. THE FO RPTED TO ME HE HAD SEEN A SINGLE ENG ACFT PASS UNDER US JUST AS THE ENGS SPOOLED. I AM NOT SURE WHETHER WE CAME CLOSER THAN 500 FT OR NOT. WE WERE BOTH LOOKING INTO A SETTING SUN AND RECEIVED NO TA FROM ATC. I RPTED TO ATC THAT WE HAD RESPONDED TO AN RA AND HAD TO CLB. THIS EVENT WAS A CLOSER ENCOUNTER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DUE TO SLOW SPOOLING ENGS. I HAVE SINCE LEARNED THIS ACFT HAS BEEN WRITTEN UP FOR THIS PROB BEFORE; AND THEN CLRED WITH NO ACTION TAKEN BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY REQUIRED SPOOL-UP TIME IN THE MAINT MANUAL. IF WE DID GET CLOSER THAN 500 FT; I STRONGLY BELIEVE IT WAS DUE TO THE POOR PERFORMANCE OF THE ENGS ON THIS PARTICULAR AIRPLANE. THE TCAS INFO SAYS WE WILL BE. I DO NOT SEE HOW WE CAN LITERALLY HAVE A TCAS COMMAND THAT WE CAN NOT INSTANTLY COMPLY WITH DUE TO ENG SPOOL PARAMETERS THAT ARE APPARENTLY OUTSIDE OF TCAS PARAMETERS.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.