37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 751663 |
Time | |
Date | 200708 |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax.airport |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl single value : 6000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sct.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : charter |
Make Model Name | Global Express |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 135 |
Navigation In Use | other |
Flight Phase | descent : intermediate altitude |
Route In Use | arrival star : poz |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : charter |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 15500 flight time type : 2150 |
ASRS Report | 751663 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | government : faa |
Function | controller : approach |
Events | |
Anomaly | aircraft equipment problem : less severe non adherence : published procedure non adherence : clearance other spatial deviation other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance Chart Or Publication |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Narrative:
IFR flight. Flight was cleared as filed; which included pdz arrival to lax. Approaching area; we were cleared an arrival; which sounded like pdz and we read back that we were cleared via the pdz arrival. Nothing more was said. On the transition; the controller asked if we were making a turn and we stated that we were starting our turn and confirmed that we were on the pdz arrival. Instead of correcting us; the controller told us that that approach did not exist any more; to just maintain 6000 ft and fly a 270 degree heading to intercept the approach; making a very big deal of the situation. Upon intercepting the final approach course; we headed inbound; intercepted the glide path; and began our descent for landing runway 25L. The controller pointed out traffic that was passing in front of us for runway 25R. We called the traffic in sight; at which time the controller told us that he had assigned us 6000 ft; we were at 5700 ft on the glide path; 'but I guess that is ok; just continue;' following behind the traffic. We landed; but totally confused. Our commercial chart printer and FMS databases both showed the pdz arrival; and we could not figure out how we had filed; been cleared; read back to approach the 'pdz' arrival; and flown an arrival that supposedly had not existed for a 'long time.' if the controller had discovered that we were on a wrong STAR; he could have corrected us easily; had us alter our flight path; and the problem resolved. Instead; by chastising us; he added to the confusion; had us chasing our tails; and wondering what was going on. We were within a short distance of where we were supposed to be; and getting closer all the time; toward the final approach course; without any word being said. Both arrs pass over suzie intersection and we were within 5 mi of it; and headed towards the intersection. Then the bad situation turned worse when we intercepted the final; and began our descent on the glide path for a landing runway 25L; when what he really wanted us to do was intercept the localizer and fly inbound; above the glide path; which would not have put us in a position for a normal landing. A complete check shows no NOTAM for the pdz arrival; and all databases show it is an active arrival to lax.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: A GLOBAL EXPRESS FLT CREW FILED; AND UNDERSTOOD THEY WERE CLEARED FOR; THE PDZ ARRIVAL INTO LAX; BUT WERE ADVISED BY THE APPROACH CONTROLLER IT IS A DISCONTINUED PROCEDURE.
Narrative: IFR FLT. FLT WAS CLRED AS FILED; WHICH INCLUDED PDZ ARR TO LAX. APCHING AREA; WE WERE CLRED AN ARR; WHICH SOUNDED LIKE PDZ AND WE READ BACK THAT WE WERE CLRED VIA THE PDZ ARR. NOTHING MORE WAS SAID. ON THE TRANSITION; THE CTLR ASKED IF WE WERE MAKING A TURN AND WE STATED THAT WE WERE STARTING OUR TURN AND CONFIRMED THAT WE WERE ON THE PDZ ARR. INSTEAD OF CORRECTING US; THE CTLR TOLD US THAT THAT APCH DID NOT EXIST ANY MORE; TO JUST MAINTAIN 6000 FT AND FLY A 270 DEG HDG TO INTERCEPT THE APCH; MAKING A VERY BIG DEAL OF THE SITUATION. UPON INTERCEPTING THE FINAL APCH COURSE; WE HEADED INBOUND; INTERCEPTED THE GLIDE PATH; AND BEGAN OUR DSCNT FOR LNDG RWY 25L. THE CTLR POINTED OUT TFC THAT WAS PASSING IN FRONT OF US FOR RWY 25R. WE CALLED THE TFC IN SIGHT; AT WHICH TIME THE CTLR TOLD US THAT HE HAD ASSIGNED US 6000 FT; WE WERE AT 5700 FT ON THE GLIDE PATH; 'BUT I GUESS THAT IS OK; JUST CONTINUE;' FOLLOWING BEHIND THE TFC. WE LANDED; BUT TOTALLY CONFUSED. OUR COMMERCIAL CHART PRINTER AND FMS DATABASES BOTH SHOWED THE PDZ ARR; AND WE COULD NOT FIGURE OUT HOW WE HAD FILED; BEEN CLRED; READ BACK TO APCH THE 'PDZ' ARR; AND FLOWN AN ARR THAT SUPPOSEDLY HAD NOT EXISTED FOR A 'LONG TIME.' IF THE CTLR HAD DISCOVERED THAT WE WERE ON A WRONG STAR; HE COULD HAVE CORRECTED US EASILY; HAD US ALTER OUR FLT PATH; AND THE PROB RESOLVED. INSTEAD; BY CHASTISING US; HE ADDED TO THE CONFUSION; HAD US CHASING OUR TAILS; AND WONDERING WHAT WAS GOING ON. WE WERE WITHIN A SHORT DISTANCE OF WHERE WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE; AND GETTING CLOSER ALL THE TIME; TOWARD THE FINAL APCH COURSE; WITHOUT ANY WORD BEING SAID. BOTH ARRS PASS OVER SUZIE INTXN AND WE WERE WITHIN 5 MI OF IT; AND HEADED TOWARDS THE INTXN. THEN THE BAD SITUATION TURNED WORSE WHEN WE INTERCEPTED THE FINAL; AND BEGAN OUR DSCNT ON THE GLIDE PATH FOR A LNDG RWY 25L; WHEN WHAT HE REALLY WANTED US TO DO WAS INTERCEPT THE LOC AND FLY INBOUND; ABOVE THE GLIDE PATH; WHICH WOULD NOT HAVE PUT US IN A POS FOR A NORMAL LNDG. A COMPLETE CHK SHOWS NO NOTAM FOR THE PDZ ARR; AND ALL DATABASES SHOW IT IS AN ACTIVE ARR TO LAX.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.