37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 770527 |
Time | |
Date | 200801 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : dfw.airport |
State Reference | TX |
Altitude | msl single value : 11000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | Mixed |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : d10.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Large Transport Low Wing 2 Turbojet Eng |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | other |
Flight Phase | descent : intermediate altitude |
Route In Use | arrival star : byp5 |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : multi engine pilot : instrument pilot : commercial pilot : cfi pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 70 flight time total : 5500 flight time type : 120 |
ASRS Report | 770527 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | government : faa |
Function | controller : approach |
Events | |
Anomaly | non adherence : published procedure other anomaly |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance Chart Or Publication |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Situations | |
Chart | airport : dfw.airport star : byp5 |
Narrative:
We were proceeding direct to karla on the bonham 5 arrival into dfw. Our clearance was to cross karla at 11000 ft. Our company is using commercial charts exclusively. Next to the karla intersection it states 'expect 11000 ft; 250 KTS landing south jet.' the captain and I both agreed that this mean 'expect 11000 ft and expect 250 KTS.' ATC cleared us to cross karla at 11000 ft (there was not an airspeed restr given). As we approached karla ATC asked us what our speed was. I replied 260 KTS and slowing. ATC was upset with our airspeed and issued us a best rate of descent to a lower altitude. We asked if our speed was a problem and the controller replied 'yes it was!' during our postflt debrief; we reviewed the chart again. It still seemed to us that the chart meant that both the altitude and airspeed were 'expected' not 'required.' this was the first leg of our trip; it was an afternoon departure; and we were well rested. The cause of our problem was a very unclr statement on the arrival chart (expect 11000 ft; 250 KTS landing south jet). We both believed that every restr after the word 'expect' was expected; not required. We were wrong. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: the reporter has not had a great deal of experience with this chart marker's product; however; the captain was fairly experienced and still did not comprehend the meaning of these notes. He feels that some minor changes could be made to make these notes more intuitive.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR FLT CREW QUESTIONS COMMERCIAL CHART'S METHOD OF INDICATING MANDATORY VERSUS EXPECT ALT AND AIRSPD RESTRS.
Narrative: WE WERE PROCEEDING DIRECT TO KARLA ON THE BONHAM 5 ARR INTO DFW. OUR CLRNC WAS TO CROSS KARLA AT 11000 FT. OUR COMPANY IS USING COMMERCIAL CHARTS EXCLUSIVELY. NEXT TO THE KARLA INTXN IT STATES 'EXPECT 11000 FT; 250 KTS LNDG S JET.' THE CAPT AND I BOTH AGREED THAT THIS MEAN 'EXPECT 11000 FT AND EXPECT 250 KTS.' ATC CLRED US TO CROSS KARLA AT 11000 FT (THERE WAS NOT AN AIRSPD RESTR GIVEN). AS WE APCHED KARLA ATC ASKED US WHAT OUR SPD WAS. I REPLIED 260 KTS AND SLOWING. ATC WAS UPSET WITH OUR AIRSPD AND ISSUED US A BEST RATE OF DSCNT TO A LOWER ALT. WE ASKED IF OUR SPD WAS A PROB AND THE CTLR REPLIED 'YES IT WAS!' DURING OUR POSTFLT DEBRIEF; WE REVIEWED THE CHART AGAIN. IT STILL SEEMED TO US THAT THE CHART MEANT THAT BOTH THE ALT AND AIRSPD WERE 'EXPECTED' NOT 'REQUIRED.' THIS WAS THE FIRST LEG OF OUR TRIP; IT WAS AN AFTERNOON DEP; AND WE WERE WELL RESTED. THE CAUSE OF OUR PROB WAS A VERY UNCLR STATEMENT ON THE ARR CHART (EXPECT 11000 FT; 250 KTS LNDG S JET). WE BOTH BELIEVED THAT EVERY RESTR AFTER THE WORD 'EXPECT' WAS EXPECTED; NOT REQUIRED. WE WERE WRONG. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE RPTR HAS NOT HAD A GREAT DEAL OF EXPERIENCE WITH THIS CHART MARKER'S PRODUCT; HOWEVER; THE CAPT WAS FAIRLY EXPERIENCED AND STILL DID NOT COMPREHEND THE MEANING OF THESE NOTES. HE FEELS THAT SOME MINOR CHANGES COULD BE MADE TO MAKE THESE NOTES MORE INTUITIVE.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of May 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.