37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 776259 |
Time | |
Date | 200803 |
Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : atl.airport |
State Reference | GA |
Altitude | msl single value : 11000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : a80.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B757-200 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | other |
Flight Phase | descent : intermediate altitude |
Route In Use | arrival star : honie |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Make Model Name | Any Unknown or Unlisted Aircraft Manufacturer |
Flight Phase | climbout : initial |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : flight engineer pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 250 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 3000 |
ASRS Report | 776259 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | government : faa |
Function | controller : approach |
Qualification | controller : radar |
Experience | controller radar : 21 controller time certified in position1 : 2 controller time certified in position2 : 11 |
ASRS Report | 776261 |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : overshoot altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met conflict : airborne critical non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | none taken : detected after the fact |
Miss Distance | horizontal : 0 vertical : 1000 |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance Aircraft Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
Captain was flying and we were cleared direct lgc for the LGC1 arrival. Over tiroe intersection; atl approach suddenly gave us the clearance; 'descend via the honie 5 arrival.' we accepted it; but we were scrambling to pull out the charts to find out what altitudes were next. As the captain flew; I pulled out the new chart and saw that our end altitude on the descend via was 4000 ft. The captain put that in the altitude window; and hit VNAV. What we didn't know is that our FMS box dropped several altitude restrictions out when we changed the arrival in the box; and the VNAV was now aiming for 4000 ft; not the 210 knots and 12000 ft at fogog. We blew through that altitude; and I recall the approach controller giving us 11000 ft after seeing us continuing to descend. He then told us to stop descending at 11000 ft; and at that point we saw that we were short of fogog intersection and below the 12000 ft restriction. We called the approach controllers on the ground; and the supervisor said the approach controller did clear us at the last minute to 11000 ft; but told us to keep our eyes open next time. We needed to fly the plane and tell the controller we were not ready to complete this STAR since we had briefed the previous one. Next time we will do that and not scramble.supplemental information from acn 776261: air carrier was issued descend via the honie 5 arrival. Air carrier descended through 12000 ft prior to fogog; where he should have crossed fogog at 12000 ft. I noticed the altitude deviation as air carrier descended through 11700 ft and I issued; 'air carrier maintain 11000 ft.' I received no reply. I restated: 'air carrier amend altitude; maintain 11000 ft.' air carrier responded as the mode C indicated 11300 ft. There was a departure off of atl level at 10000 ft; whose paths crossed and targets merged. There are numerous altitude deviations on the 'descend via' procedures using the stars into atl. The FAA is documenting these as 'rnp/RNAV anomaly' not as pilot deviations. I am concerned that there is a training issue in the cockpit; as well as the controllers being able to notice an altitude deviation in time to prevent a midair collision in the vicinity of the world's busiest airport; or any other airport. I believe that we are relying too heavily on automation and the ability of humans to program the automation correctly.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: THE ARRIVAL PROCEDURE WAS CHANGED AS A B757 FLT CREW WAS APPROACHING ATL. WHEN THE NEW STAR WAS SELECTED; THE ALT RESTRICTIONS WERE NOT IN THE FMS; AND THE FLT CREW OVERSHOT THE RESTRICTIONS.
Narrative: CAPTAIN WAS FLYING AND WE WERE CLEARED DIRECT LGC FOR THE LGC1 ARRIVAL. OVER TIROE INTXN; ATL APCH SUDDENLY GAVE US THE CLEARANCE; 'DESCEND VIA THE HONIE 5 ARRIVAL.' WE ACCEPTED IT; BUT WE WERE SCRAMBLING TO PULL OUT THE CHARTS TO FIND OUT WHAT ALTITUDES WERE NEXT. AS THE CAPTAIN FLEW; I PULLED OUT THE NEW CHART AND SAW THAT OUR END ALTITUDE ON THE DESCEND VIA WAS 4000 FT. THE CAPTAIN PUT THAT IN THE ALTITUDE WINDOW; AND HIT VNAV. WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW IS THAT OUR FMS BOX DROPPED SEVERAL ALTITUDE RESTRICTIONS OUT WHEN WE CHANGED THE ARRIVAL IN THE BOX; AND THE VNAV WAS NOW AIMING FOR 4000 FT; NOT THE 210 KNOTS AND 12000 FT AT FOGOG. WE BLEW THROUGH THAT ALTITUDE; AND I RECALL THE APCH CONTROLLER GIVING US 11000 FT AFTER SEEING US CONTINUING TO DESCEND. HE THEN TOLD US TO STOP DESCENDING AT 11000 FT; AND AT THAT POINT WE SAW THAT WE WERE SHORT OF FOGOG INTXN AND BELOW THE 12000 FT RESTRICTION. WE CALLED THE APCH CONTROLLERS ON THE GROUND; AND THE SUPERVISOR SAID THE APCH CONTROLLER DID CLEAR US AT THE LAST MINUTE TO 11000 FT; BUT TOLD US TO KEEP OUR EYES OPEN NEXT TIME. WE NEEDED TO FLY THE PLANE AND TELL THE CONTROLLER WE WERE NOT READY TO COMPLETE THIS STAR SINCE WE HAD BRIEFED THE PREVIOUS ONE. NEXT TIME WE WILL DO THAT AND NOT SCRAMBLE.SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 776261: ACR WAS ISSUED DESCEND VIA THE HONIE 5 ARRIVAL. ACR DESCENDED THROUGH 12000 FT PRIOR TO FOGOG; WHERE HE SHOULD HAVE CROSSED FOGOG AT 12000 FT. I NOTICED THE ALTITUDE DEVIATION AS ACR DESCENDED THROUGH 11700 FT AND I ISSUED; 'ACR MAINTAIN 11000 FT.' I RECEIVED NO REPLY. I RESTATED: 'ACR AMEND ALTITUDE; MAINTAIN 11000 FT.' ACR RESPONDED AS THE MODE C INDICATED 11300 FT. THERE WAS A DEPARTURE OFF OF ATL LEVEL AT 10000 FT; WHOSE PATHS CROSSED AND TARGETS MERGED. THERE ARE NUMEROUS ALTITUDE DEVIATIONS ON THE 'DESCEND VIA' PROCEDURES USING THE STARS INTO ATL. THE FAA IS DOCUMENTING THESE AS 'RNP/RNAV ANOMALY' NOT AS PILOT DEVIATIONS. I AM CONCERNED THAT THERE IS A TRAINING ISSUE IN THE COCKPIT; AS WELL AS THE CONTROLLERS BEING ABLE TO NOTICE AN ALTITUDE DEVIATION IN TIME TO PREVENT A MIDAIR COLLISION IN THE VICINITY OF THE WORLD'S BUSIEST AIRPORT; OR ANY OTHER AIRPORT. I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE RELYING TOO HEAVILY ON AUTOMATION AND THE ABILITY OF HUMANS TO PROGRAM THE AUTOMATION CORRECTLY.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of May 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.