37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 784118 |
Time | |
Date | 200804 |
Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : wsss.airport |
State Reference | FO |
Altitude | agl single value : 0 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Aircraft 1 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B747-400 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | other |
Flight Phase | ground : taxi |
Route In Use | departure sid : vma3e |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 230 flight time total : 19000 flight time type : 470 |
ASRS Report | 784118 |
Events | |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : unable |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Chart Or Publication |
Primary Problem | Chart Or Publication |
Situations | |
Chart | sid : vmr3e |
Narrative:
VMA3E SID (as well as most wsss SID's) contain a note 5 'initial departure climb altitude is 3000 ft or as directed by ATC.' our ATC clearance was 'cleared hkg; VMA3E; fpr; FL400; squawk XXXX.' cockpit discussion followed whether we were limited to 3000 ft or cleared unrestr to FL400. We asked for clarification and ATC advised we were cleared to 3000 ft. 1) the note is in small print buried among numerous other notes at top of page. 2) no bold letter altitude limit is depicted of the plan view of the pages; unlike most SID's with an initial altitude limit. 3) ATC clearance 'FL400' could be interpreted to waive the 3000 ft limit per the departure note 'or as directed by ATC.' 4) wording by clearance delivery was 'FL400' not 'expect FL400.' the ambiguity of the clearance and the wording and small type of the altitude note appears to be a great opportunity for an altitude bust. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: captain advised the SID was the mersing three echo RNAV SID (VMR3E vice VMA3E). Also noted they were perplexed by the 'at or above' crossing restrictions that were above the 3000 ft altitude imposed by the note. The dichotomy was not an issue in the performance of the departure because they were immediately cleared to a higher altitude upon contacting departure control. Reporter does not feel this result adequately addresses the ambiguity of the published material and/or the altitude clearance provided by clearance delivery. Also concerned that language barrier issues could compound the potential for misunderstanding.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B747-400 CAPTAIN REPORTS AMBIGUOUS ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS BETWEEN ATC CLEARANCES AND ASSIGNED SIDS AT WSSS.
Narrative: VMA3E SID (AS WELL AS MOST WSSS SID'S) CONTAIN A NOTE 5 'INITIAL DEP CLB ALT IS 3000 FT OR AS DIRECTED BY ATC.' OUR ATC CLRNC WAS 'CLRED HKG; VMA3E; FPR; FL400; SQUAWK XXXX.' COCKPIT DISCUSSION FOLLOWED WHETHER WE WERE LIMITED TO 3000 FT OR CLRED UNRESTR TO FL400. WE ASKED FOR CLARIFICATION AND ATC ADVISED WE WERE CLRED TO 3000 FT. 1) THE NOTE IS IN SMALL PRINT BURIED AMONG NUMEROUS OTHER NOTES AT TOP OF PAGE. 2) NO BOLD LETTER ALT LIMIT IS DEPICTED OF THE PLAN VIEW OF THE PAGES; UNLIKE MOST SID'S WITH AN INITIAL ALT LIMIT. 3) ATC CLRNC 'FL400' COULD BE INTERPED TO WAIVE THE 3000 FT LIMIT PER THE DEP NOTE 'OR AS DIRECTED BY ATC.' 4) WORDING BY CLRNC DELIVERY WAS 'FL400' NOT 'EXPECT FL400.' THE AMBIGUITY OF THE CLRNC AND THE WORDING AND SMALL TYPE OF THE ALT NOTE APPEARS TO BE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR AN ALT BUST. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: CAPTAIN ADVISED THE SID WAS THE MERSING THREE ECHO RNAV SID (VMR3E VICE VMA3E). ALSO NOTED THEY WERE PERPLEXED BY THE 'AT OR ABOVE' CROSSING RESTRICTIONS THAT WERE ABOVE THE 3000 FT ALT IMPOSED BY THE NOTE. THE DICHOTOMY WAS NOT AN ISSUE IN THE PERFORMANCE OF THE DEP BECAUSE THEY WERE IMMEDIATELY CLEARED TO A HIGHER ALT UPON CONTACTING DEP CTL. REPORTER DOES NOT FEEL THIS RESULT ADEQUATELY ADDRESSES THE AMBIGUITY OF THE PUBLISHED MATERIAL AND/OR THE ALT CLRNC PROVIDED BY CLRNC DELIVERY. ALSO CONCERNED THAT LANGUAGE BARRIER ISSUES COULD COMPOUND THE POTENTIAL FOR MISUNDERSTANDING.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of May 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.