37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 94122 |
Time | |
Date | 198809 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | atc facility : bff |
State Reference | NE |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 37000 msl bound upper : 37000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : zdv |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Navigation In Use | Other |
Flight Phase | cruise other |
Route In Use | enroute : on vectors |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : flight engineer pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 120 flight time total : 5500 flight time type : 1400 |
ASRS Report | 94122 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : commercial |
Events | |
Anomaly | other spatial deviation |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance other |
Consequence | Other |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation other |
Narrative:
On radar vector for parallel traffic 080 degree heading, ATC cleared direct bff J94 flight plan. I turned toward 030 degree heading for bff and dialed outbnd course (J94) in course selector. A few min later, controller cleared me present heading to J94 and became quite upset saying I was about to infringe on another aircraft's space (he was turning me for in trail space). He was right, in that my turn radius and tailwind (47 KTS), would put me a few mi east of bff. However, flying the VOR needle, close in, by then west/in 16 mi, I held steady, assuming I was west/in a few mi and acceptable. To 'chase the needle' to bff close in is not acceptable I recommend that controllers be advised to give vector headings for spacing rather than high angle turns to a station, close in, at high altitude. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following. Reporter feels this was a new controller who perhaps does not know aircraft turn radius and expects tight '3G' turns. Instructions for 'direct' when close in are not appropriate for medium large transport aircraft. Better to use a specific vector heading. Controller wanted to argue the issue on frequency, so reporter just said 'sorry' and dropped it. Wrote report because he feels controllers need educating on aircraft perf and limitations of turning capabilities with passenger on board. No actual encroachment of anyone's airspace. Reporter also feels perhaps pilots should visit center and view controllers' situation, too.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: HEADING DEVIATION.
Narrative: ON RADAR VECTOR FOR PARALLEL TFC 080 DEG HDG, ATC CLRED DIRECT BFF J94 FLT PLAN. I TURNED TOWARD 030 DEG HDG FOR BFF AND DIALED OUTBND COURSE (J94) IN COURSE SELECTOR. A FEW MIN LATER, CTLR CLRED ME PRESENT HDG TO J94 AND BECAME QUITE UPSET SAYING I WAS ABOUT TO INFRINGE ON ANOTHER ACFT'S SPACE (HE WAS TURNING ME FOR IN TRAIL SPACE). HE WAS RIGHT, IN THAT MY TURN RADIUS AND TAILWIND (47 KTS), WOULD PUT ME A FEW MI E OF BFF. HOWEVER, FLYING THE VOR NEEDLE, CLOSE IN, BY THEN W/IN 16 MI, I HELD STEADY, ASSUMING I WAS W/IN A FEW MI AND ACCEPTABLE. TO 'CHASE THE NEEDLE' TO BFF CLOSE IN IS NOT ACCEPTABLE I RECOMMEND THAT CTLRS BE ADVISED TO GIVE VECTOR HDGS FOR SPACING RATHER THAN HIGH ANGLE TURNS TO A STATION, CLOSE IN, AT HIGH ALT. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING. RPTR FEELS THIS WAS A NEW CTLR WHO PERHAPS DOES NOT KNOW ACFT TURN RADIUS AND EXPECTS TIGHT '3G' TURNS. INSTRUCTIONS FOR 'DIRECT' WHEN CLOSE IN ARE NOT APPROPRIATE FOR MLG ACFT. BETTER TO USE A SPECIFIC VECTOR HDG. CTLR WANTED TO ARGUE THE ISSUE ON FREQ, SO RPTR JUST SAID 'SORRY' AND DROPPED IT. WROTE RPT BECAUSE HE FEELS CTLRS NEED EDUCATING ON ACFT PERF AND LIMITATIONS OF TURNING CAPABILITIES WITH PAX ON BOARD. NO ACTUAL ENCROACHMENT OF ANYONE'S AIRSPACE. RPTR ALSO FEELS PERHAPS PLTS SHOULD VISIT CENTER AND VIEW CTLRS' SITUATION, TOO.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.