Narrative:

My student was a twenty-nine year old egyptian native who had been living in the united states for the past year. He recently earned his commercial pilot rating from a local flight school; and was receiving his CFI training from me. He and I had recently completed the ground training portion of the CFI training (minus the foi's) and had just begun the flight training. His ground knowledge was very weak; so I planned to repeat that portion of his training; with him teaching me the material more. After three flights in a 172RG; talking through and practicing commercial maneuvers; he had made great improvement. Because he was a CFI candidate; the flights were done with the student in the right seat. On our fourth flight; I planned to practice landings with him continuing in right seat. The 172RG was a new plane for him; as he had done his flight training in a piper arrow. My plan was to take him to a nearby quiet airport; with a huge runway; as our local airport had a lot of traffic and was notorious for crosswinds. The student however expressed a strong desire to practice crosswinds; having not done so with his previous flight school training. I reasoned; based on his commercial rating; he would have the ability to learn crosswind landings. In the three flights previous; we had done full stop landings all of which required my crosswind corrections. The fourth flight was to stay in the pattern and practice landings. On several occasions prior to the flight; I discussed proper correction technique and again right before takeoff in the run-up. I had just finished emphasizing the importance of letting off your rudder correction immediately after touchdown; to avoid causing the plane to turn in the direction of the rudder correction. I also said if he started to become unstable on the runway to let off the rudders and the plane will straighten itself out. And; that only after the plane had stabilized; to ease in some rudder correction to get back on centerline and to stay off of the brakes until the plane had slowed down on its own. I also emphasized this from a CFI perspective; cautioning him to watch out for this in his own future students. For the first landing in the pattern; the student did exactly what I had warned him of. We had a slight left crosswind approximately 6-7 knots; landing runway 28 with winds from 230-250. We had a slight amount of left aileron correction; as well as a slight amount of right rudder correction. We had a stable approach and flare; however; immediately after touchdown; the plane veered right and then hard left towards the edge of the left side of the runway. Three times I sternly told him to get 'off the rudders; off the brakes; my controls!' at the edge of the runway; I was able to regain control and prevent the plane from going off the runway. As I was taxiing the plane off the runway; tower control asked if we needed any assistance. I responded none was required; but requested a taxi clearance to transient parking. After reaching transient parking; I shut down the plane and got out. I inspected the tires and nose gear. I checked the gear and rolled the plane forward and backward to check for any bald spots. I then got back into the plane to discuss what had just happened. I told him he had not released his right rudder correction on touchdown; causing us to veer right and that he had over corrected with left rudder and brake; causing us to veer left. We discussed the problem of him not relinquishing the flight controls and he agreed that he would let off right away the next time I told him 'my controls'. He nodded his head and said he understood that he needed to stay off the rudders and brakes right after touchdown; and to be really light on his rudder corrections. We started the plane back up and I told the student that I wanted to show him a landing and wanted him to shadow the controls with me. I was on the controls when we landed for the second time together in the pattern; and we landed stabilized with a light crosswind with no problems. Coming back around for our third landing; I gave him back the controls. We had a stabilized approach and landing; and this time there was no problem with rudder control. I did however; have to help the student with the aileron correction because he was letting out the correction on the flare. This is very common when learning crosswind landings; so I was holding just enough pressure on the controls to prevent him from taking out the left aileron correction. We made two more landings; working out that same problem with the aileron correction; but no problems with rudder control. The other problem the student had on two of his landings was that he was not reducing power to idle. Twice; I had to pull out the power for him and remind him to bring it out all the way.on the fifth touch and go; we came in on a stabilized approach with just the right amount of left aileron and right rudder correction. We flared and as soon as we touched down; the plane veered hard to the right and then hard to the left; putting us almost at a 90 degree angle to the runway. We started to skid across the runway towards the left edge. Again I told him to get off the rudders and brake; my controls while trying to overpower him with some right rudder and a little right brake. At this point it was like being on ice and any type of correction might make it worse. I was able to stop the skidding sideways motion and bring the plane back to the right just before going off the edge of the runway. As the plane came back around to the right; the input of both rudders and brake; as well as our forward momentum; caused us to pitch forward; which in turn caused a prop strike. The prop strike caused us to pitch back level and then the plane continued off the edge of the left side of the runway into the grass. I proceeded taxiing the plane out of the grass to the taxiway. Tower again asked if we needed assistance and I said no; but that we needed a taxi clearance to the maintenance shop. I told the student that we had just had a prop strike; and he did not think the plane had been damaged. Lack of experience and gaps in his flight training; in my opinion; lead to the cause of this incident. He did not have enough experience with crosswind landings; and at his level; he should have been proficient. More training at airfields with crosswinds would have prevented this. The student trained primarily at a field that does not experience a lot of crosswinds. A commercial rated pilot should know how to land with crosswinds; and should never have a problem with over correcting with brake and rudder control right after landing.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: C172 instructor describes a runway excursion caused by his student CFI student. Apparently the students previous training had not included any significant crosswind landing instruction.

Narrative: My student was a twenty-nine year old Egyptian native who had been living in the United States for the past year. He recently earned his commercial pilot rating from a local Flight School; and was receiving his CFI training from me. He and I had recently completed the ground training portion of the CFI training (minus the FOI's) and had just begun the flight training. His ground knowledge was very weak; so I planned to repeat that portion of his training; with him teaching me the material more. After three flights in a 172RG; talking through and practicing commercial maneuvers; he had made great improvement. Because he was a CFI candidate; the flights were done with the student in the right seat. On our fourth flight; I planned to practice landings with him continuing in right seat. The 172RG was a new plane for him; as he had done his flight training in a Piper Arrow. My plan was to take him to a nearby quiet airport; with a huge runway; as our local airport had a lot of traffic and was notorious for crosswinds. The student however expressed a strong desire to practice crosswinds; having not done so with his previous flight school training. I reasoned; based on his commercial rating; he would have the ability to learn crosswind landings. In the three flights previous; we had done full stop landings all of which required my crosswind corrections. The fourth flight was to stay in the pattern and practice landings. On several occasions prior to the flight; I discussed proper correction technique and again right before takeoff in the run-up. I had just finished emphasizing the importance of letting off your rudder correction immediately after touchdown; to avoid causing the plane to turn in the direction of the rudder correction. I also said if he started to become unstable on the runway to let off the rudders and the plane will straighten itself out. And; that only after the plane had stabilized; to ease in some rudder correction to get back on centerline and to stay off of the brakes until the plane had slowed down on its own. I also emphasized this from a CFI perspective; cautioning him to watch out for this in his own future students. For the first landing in the pattern; the student did exactly what I had warned him of. We had a slight left crosswind approximately 6-7 knots; landing Runway 28 with winds from 230-250. We had a slight amount of left aileron correction; as well as a slight amount of right rudder correction. We had a stable approach and flare; however; immediately after touchdown; the plane veered right and then hard left towards the edge of the left side of the runway. Three times I sternly told him to get 'off the rudders; off the brakes; my controls!' At the edge of the runway; I was able to regain control and prevent the plane from going off the runway. As I was taxiing the plane off the runway; Tower Control asked if we needed any assistance. I responded none was required; but requested a taxi clearance to transient parking. After reaching transient parking; I shut down the plane and got out. I inspected the tires and nose gear. I checked the gear and rolled the plane forward and backward to check for any bald spots. I then got back into the plane to discuss what had just happened. I told him he had not released his right rudder correction on touchdown; causing us to veer right and that he had over corrected with left rudder and brake; causing us to veer left. We discussed the problem of him not relinquishing the flight controls and he agreed that he would let off right away the next time I told him 'my controls'. He nodded his head and said he understood that he needed to stay off the rudders and brakes right after touchdown; and to be really light on his rudder corrections. We started the plane back up and I told the student that I wanted to show him a landing and wanted him to shadow the controls with me. I was on the controls when we landed for the second time together in the pattern; and we landed stabilized with a light crosswind with no problems. Coming back around for our third landing; I gave him back the controls. We had a stabilized approach and landing; and this time there was no problem with rudder control. I did however; have to help the student with the aileron correction because he was letting out the correction on the flare. This is very common when learning crosswind landings; so I was holding just enough pressure on the controls to prevent him from taking out the left aileron correction. We made two more landings; working out that same problem with the aileron correction; but no problems with rudder control. The other problem the student had on two of his landings was that he was not reducing power to idle. Twice; I had to pull out the power for him and remind him to bring it out all the way.On the fifth touch and go; we came in on a stabilized approach with just the right amount of left aileron and right rudder correction. We flared and as soon as we touched down; the plane veered hard to the right and then hard to the left; putting us almost at a 90 degree angle to the runway. We started to skid across the runway towards the left edge. Again I told him to get off the rudders and brake; my controls while trying to overpower him with some right rudder and a little right brake. At this point it was like being on ice and any type of correction might make it worse. I was able to stop the skidding sideways motion and bring the plane back to the right just before going off the edge of the runway. As the plane came back around to the right; the input of both rudders and brake; as well as our forward momentum; caused us to pitch forward; which in turn caused a prop strike. The prop strike caused us to pitch back level and then the plane continued off the edge of the left side of the runway into the grass. I proceeded taxiing the plane out of the grass to the taxiway. Tower again asked if we needed assistance and I said no; but that we needed a taxi clearance to the maintenance shop. I told the student that we had just had a prop strike; and he did not think the plane had been damaged. Lack of experience and gaps in his flight training; in my opinion; lead to the cause of this incident. He did not have enough experience with crosswind landings; and at his level; he should have been proficient. More training at airfields with crosswinds would have prevented this. The student trained primarily at a field that does not experience a lot of crosswinds. A commercial rated pilot should know how to land with crosswinds; and should never have a problem with over correcting with brake and rudder control right after landing.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.