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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 116650 |
Time | |
Date | 198907 |
Day | Thu |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 2500 msl bound upper : 2500 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : lax |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Flight Phase | descent : approach descent other |
Route In Use | approach : visual enroute : on vectors |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Small Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turboprop Eng |
Flight Phase | descent : approach descent other |
Route In Use | approach : straight in |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer pilot : cfi |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 3500 |
ASRS Report | 116650 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : private pilot : commercial pilot : flight engineer pilot : instrument |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 5000 flight time type : 2500 |
ASRS Report | 116658 |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : clearance other spatial deviation |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance other |
Consequence | Other |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
While flying the los angeles profile descent runway 24/25 on the smo 068 degree radial at 10 DME, ATC gave us 'traffic at 3 O'clock' on final. We saw him and were given a visual clearance to 24L. The other traffic (an small transport) was going to 24R. As we turned base to final, ATC gave us a turn back to 040 degree, said we were cutting off our traffic which confused us because we still had a visual on our east O'clock traffic. There were numerous aircraft on final and 040 degree turned us back at them, so the captain (who was flying the aircraft) hesitated at about 080 degree till we could determine if we were going to turn into them (aircraft on final). ATC called back to confirm 040 degree so we continued our turn. Now ATC says our traffic was at 11 O'clock, impossible since we hadn't crossed the final to either 24L or right. We still had the airport in sight (a very clear night unusual for los angeles), so they cleared us for a right turn back for the visual 24R. The remainder of the approach and landing was uneventful. ATC workload high. ATC expected to be able to identify aircraft type at night. ATC possibly gave wrong traffic position or wanted us to follow different aircraft. Numerous aircraft in TCA all going to 4 parallel runways. Extremely clear night allowed us to see aircraft on 15-20 mi base legs added to our own confusion. Shouldn't have accepted visual behind a 'type' aircraft at night. Long duty day, 7:33 hard time, flying late after that long is too much. Crew on east coast time so it was late night to us. On this particular night with so many aircraft in TCA, we should have been using the charted lax stadium visual. ATC would know where we will be going. We should all be more conservative late at night.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR MLG ACCEPTED A VISUAL APCH TO RWY 24L AT LAX AT NIGHT THEN IDENTIFIED THE WRONG TRAFFIC THEY HAD BEEN INSTRUCTED TO FOLLOW. ADDITIONAL RADAR VECTORS CORRECTED THE PROBLEM.
Narrative: WHILE FLYING THE LOS ANGELES PROFILE DSCNT RWY 24/25 ON THE SMO 068 DEG RADIAL AT 10 DME, ATC GAVE US 'TFC AT 3 O'CLOCK' ON FINAL. WE SAW HIM AND WERE GIVEN A VISUAL CLRNC TO 24L. THE OTHER TFC (AN SMT) WAS GOING TO 24R. AS WE TURNED BASE TO FINAL, ATC GAVE US A TURN BACK TO 040 DEG, SAID WE WERE CUTTING OFF OUR TFC WHICH CONFUSED US BECAUSE WE STILL HAD A VISUAL ON OUR E O'CLOCK TFC. THERE WERE NUMEROUS ACFT ON FINAL AND 040 DEG TURNED US BACK AT THEM, SO THE CAPT (WHO WAS FLYING THE ACFT) HESITATED AT ABOUT 080 DEG TILL WE COULD DETERMINE IF WE WERE GOING TO TURN INTO THEM (ACFT ON FINAL). ATC CALLED BACK TO CONFIRM 040 DEG SO WE CONTINUED OUR TURN. NOW ATC SAYS OUR TFC WAS AT 11 O'CLOCK, IMPOSSIBLE SINCE WE HADN'T CROSSED THE FINAL TO EITHER 24L OR R. WE STILL HAD THE ARPT IN SIGHT (A VERY CLEAR NIGHT UNUSUAL FOR LOS ANGELES), SO THEY CLRED US FOR A RIGHT TURN BACK FOR THE VISUAL 24R. THE REMAINDER OF THE APCH AND LNDG WAS UNEVENTFUL. ATC WORKLOAD HIGH. ATC EXPECTED TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY ACFT TYPE AT NIGHT. ATC POSSIBLY GAVE WRONG TFC POSITION OR WANTED US TO FOLLOW DIFFERENT ACFT. NUMEROUS ACFT IN TCA ALL GOING TO 4 PARALLEL RWYS. EXTREMELY CLEAR NIGHT ALLOWED US TO SEE ACFT ON 15-20 MI BASE LEGS ADDED TO OUR OWN CONFUSION. SHOULDN'T HAVE ACCEPTED VISUAL BEHIND A 'TYPE' ACFT AT NIGHT. LONG DUTY DAY, 7:33 HARD TIME, FLYING LATE AFTER THAT LONG IS TOO MUCH. CREW ON EAST COAST TIME SO IT WAS LATE NIGHT TO US. ON THIS PARTICULAR NIGHT WITH SO MANY ACFT IN TCA, WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN USING THE CHARTED LAX STADIUM VISUAL. ATC WOULD KNOW WHERE WE WILL BE GOING. WE SHOULD ALL BE MORE CONSERVATIVE LATE AT NIGHT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.