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Pilots and a controller report of confusing hold short lines near no longer active closed runway. The pilots were advised by ATC that they crossed the hold short lines and should have held short of the no longer active closed runway. The pilots were told by ATC that they put this on the ATIS right after they had crossed the hold short line. Pilots stated it is not stated or shown anywhere that this would have been the correct procedure.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 1273702 |
| Time | |
| Date | 201506 |
| Local Time Of Day | 0001-0600 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | PSP.Airport |
| State Reference | CA |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | Taxi |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Function | Pilot Flying Captain |
| Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) |
| Person 2 | |
| Function | Other / Unknown |
| Qualification | Air Traffic Control Fully Certified |
| Experience | Air Traffic Control Time Certified In Pos 1 (yrs) 7 |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | ATC Issue All Types Deviation - Procedural Clearance Deviation - Procedural Published Material / Policy Ground Incursion Runway |
Narrative:
Taxi out to psp temp runway 31L; we were given the clearance to 'taxi to 31L via B; west; a'. As we approached the closed 31L we briefly discussed whether to hold short the closed 31L; but since they issued clearance to 31L with no modifiers such as 'hold short closed 31L'; or else 'cross closed 31L'; we agreed that closed 31L was not restrictive in any way and our clearance was to the active 31L (temp). There is no stop line depicted on either the 10-8 or the 10-9 and in fact the 10-9 shows the closed 31L is being gone; removed from the chart and unlabeled; with 31LTemp clearly labeled as the only active runway. After crossing the closed 31L; we were informed by tower that we should have stopped prior to the closed 31L stop bar. We asked where that instruction came from as a reference and were told that they had just changed the ATIS after our event to reflect that requirement. It was not on the ATIS we recorded; nor was it in the psp 10-7 temp notes.the runway stop bar procedure at psp conflicts with ATC instructions and [chart publication] depictions of airfield diagrams. Due to the large change in procedures caused by this runway closure; this should be addressed clearly on ATC instructions and temporary airfield diagrams.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: Pilots and a Controller report of confusing hold short lines near no longer active closed runway. The pilots were advised by ATC that they crossed the hold short lines and should have held short of the no longer active closed runway. The pilots were told by ATC that they put this on the ATIS right after they had crossed the hold short line. Pilots stated it is not stated or shown anywhere that this would have been the correct procedure.
Narrative: Taxi out to PSP Temp runway 31L; we were given the clearance to 'Taxi to 31L via B; W; A'. As we approached the closed 31L we briefly discussed whether to hold short the closed 31L; but since they issued clearance to 31L with no modifiers such as 'hold short closed 31L'; or else 'cross closed 31L'; we agreed that closed 31L was not restrictive in any way and our clearance was to the active 31L (Temp). There is no stop line depicted on either the 10-8 or the 10-9 and in fact the 10-9 shows the closed 31L is being gone; removed from the chart and unlabeled; with 31LTemp clearly labeled as the only active runway. After crossing the closed 31L; we were informed by Tower that we should have stopped prior to the closed 31L stop bar. We asked where that instruction came from as a reference and were told that they had just changed the ATIS after our event to reflect that requirement. It was not on the ATIS we recorded; nor was it in the PSP 10-7 Temp notes.The runway stop bar procedure at PSP conflicts with ATC instructions and [chart publication] depictions of airfield diagrams. Due to the large change in procedures caused by this runway closure; this should be addressed clearly on ATC instructions and temporary airfield diagrams.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.