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Gulfstream ii flight crew reported confusion with the approach clearance issued by a mmtj ATC controller.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 1276088 |
| Time | |
| Date | 201506 |
| Local Time Of Day | 0601-1200 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | MMTJ.Airport |
| State Reference | FO |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | Mixed |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Make Model Name | Gulfstream II (G1159) |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
| Flight Phase | Initial Approach |
| Route In Use | Vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Function | Captain Pilot Flying Instructor |
| Qualification | Flight Crew Instrument Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) Flight Crew Multiengine Flight Crew Flight Instructor |
| Experience | Flight Crew Last 90 Days 80 Flight Crew Total 17300 Flight Crew Type 2200 |
| Person 2 | |
| Function | Instructor Pilot Not Flying First Officer |
| Qualification | Flight Crew Flight Instructor Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) Flight Crew Multiengine Flight Crew Instrument |
| Experience | Flight Crew Last 90 Days 35 Flight Crew Total 3400 Flight Crew Type 250 |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | ATC Issue All Types Deviation - Procedural Clearance Deviation - Procedural Published Material / Policy Deviation - Track / Heading All Types |
Narrative:
I love mexico. I don't like confusing approach to IFR approaches and the ATC system they have down there. Every flight has some confusing lost-in-the-void instructions that make little to no sense.on this day we were given a clearance over the tij VOR; cleared for the VOR2 approach runway 27.if we get such a clearance it is my understanding as pilot in command; since it is not a vector to the final nor to an IAF; as a pilot we can go to any IAF 'instrument approach fix' we desire to commence the approach safely since we were not being vectored to final or being vectored to an IAF. Mind you tij VOR is not an IAF!so we began to fly to the missed approach point for safety to keep us in the most protected airspace and then commence the approach; via descend in the hold to the DME arc; then the tij approach control begins barking at us to intercept the 120 degree radial outbound from the tij VOR and then procedure turn back in onto the final we assumed! So if we are cleared for the approach with no vectors and expected to know this yet it is not given in a clearance nor is it depicted as a lead track radial on the chart. We either get a vector or we are cleared for an approach we fly ourselves. We cannot do both. Fortunately we were able to catch the 120 degree radial however these clearances are confusing at best if not unsafe since crews must make short notice changes that can destabilize the aircraft and the approach. Also a turn from the 120 degree radial is more than 30 degrees and is considered a next gen turn or approach thus we are unable to perform that through an FMS or any other means; there goes the procedure turn; which there is none until you get to an IAF.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: Gulfstream II flight crew reported confusion with the approach clearance issued by a MMTJ ATC controller.
Narrative: I love Mexico. I don't like confusing approach to IFR approaches and the ATC system they have down there. Every flight has some confusing lost-in-the-void instructions that make little to no sense.On this day we were given a clearance over the TIJ VOR; CLEARED FOR THE VOR2 APPROACH RUNWAY 27.If we get such a clearance it is my understanding as Pilot in Command; since it is NOT a vector to the final nor to an IAF; as a pilot we can go to ANY IAF 'Instrument Approach Fix' we desire to commence the approach safely since we were not being vectored to final or being vectored to an IAF. Mind you TIJ VOR is NOT an IAF!So we began to fly to the missed approach point for safety to keep us in the most protected airspace and then commence the approach; via descend in the hold to the DME arc; then the TIJ approach control begins barking at us to intercept the 120 degree radial outbound from the TIJ VOR and then procedure turn back in onto the final we assumed! So if we are cleared for the approach with no vectors and expected to know this yet it is not given in a clearance NOR is it depicted as a lead track radial on the chart. We either get a vector OR we are cleared for an approach we fly ourselves. We cannot do both. Fortunately we were able to catch the 120 degree radial however these clearances are confusing at best if not unsafe since crews must make short notice changes that can destabilize the aircraft and the approach. Also a turn from the 120 degree radial is more than 30 degrees and is considered a NEXT GEN turn or approach thus we are unable to perform that through an FMS or any other means; there goes the procedure turn; which there is none until you get to an IAF.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.