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Flight crew of medium large transport on night visual to lax to maintain vertical separation on crossing medium large transport crossed over the traffic at approximately 650'.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 133787 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199001 |
| Day | Thu |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : lax |
| State Reference | CA |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 3000 msl bound upper : 3500 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Night |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : lax |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach descent other |
| Route In Use | approach : visual |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach descent other |
| Route In Use | approach : visual |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : flight engineer pilot : commercial pilot : cfi pilot : atp pilot : instrument |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 180 |
| ASRS Report | 133787 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : commercial pilot : instrument |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe |
| Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : insufficient time |
| Consequence | Other |
| Miss Distance | horizontal : 0 vertical : 650 |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | Operational Deviation Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
Had been cleared for night visibility approach to 25R at lax (south runway complex). We were coming from the north out of fillmore, santa monica. We were given a widebody transport to maintain horizontal sep on (he was to 25L) and an medium large transport for 'vertical sep' (he was going to the north [runway 24L-right] complex; he was below us). I was in the process of dirtying up, trying to get down from a too high final (lax standard setup) and maintain sep from widebody transport. My wing was up on medium large transport and I was giving him only occasional glances. As we crossed, me directly over the top of him, I realized that I had misjudged the vertical sep and had far less than I thought--estimated 500', although it could have been from 300-800'. No time for evasive action. Contributing factors: 1) my aircraft cockpit workload at high density airport. 2) poor handling by lax approach (this was our fourth runway assignment). 3) major--trying to judge vertical sep at night, over the lights of left.a., on an aircraft that is below you. How to prevent: 'vertical sep' at night is criminally dumb. There is no way it can be done, safely, at night over a city. It should not be allowed.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: FLT CREW OF MLG ON NIGHT VISUAL TO LAX TO MAINTAIN VERTICAL SEPARATION ON CROSSING MLG CROSSED OVER THE TRAFFIC AT APPROX 650'.
Narrative: HAD BEEN CLRED FOR NIGHT VIS APCH TO 25R AT LAX (S RWY COMPLEX). WE WERE COMING FROM THE N OUT OF FILLMORE, SANTA MONICA. WE WERE GIVEN A WDB TO MAINTAIN HORIZ SEP ON (HE WAS TO 25L) AND AN MLG FOR 'VERT SEP' (HE WAS GOING TO THE N [RWY 24L-R] COMPLEX; HE WAS BELOW US). I WAS IN THE PROCESS OF DIRTYING UP, TRYING TO GET DOWN FROM A TOO HIGH FINAL (LAX STANDARD SETUP) AND MAINTAIN SEP FROM WDB. MY WING WAS UP ON MLG AND I WAS GIVING HIM ONLY OCCASIONAL GLANCES. AS WE CROSSED, ME DIRECTLY OVER THE TOP OF HIM, I REALIZED THAT I HAD MISJUDGED THE VERT SEP AND HAD FAR LESS THAN I THOUGHT--ESTIMATED 500', ALTHOUGH IT COULD HAVE BEEN FROM 300-800'. NO TIME FOR EVASIVE ACTION. CONTRIBUTING FACTORS: 1) MY ACFT COCKPIT WORKLOAD AT HIGH DENSITY ARPT. 2) POOR HANDLING BY LAX APCH (THIS WAS OUR FOURTH RWY ASSIGNMENT). 3) MAJOR--TRYING TO JUDGE VERT SEP AT NIGHT, OVER THE LIGHTS OF L.A., ON AN ACFT THAT IS BELOW YOU. HOW TO PREVENT: 'VERT SEP' AT NIGHT IS CRIMINALLY DUMB. THERE IS NO WAY IT CAN BE DONE, SAFELY, AT NIGHT OVER A CITY. IT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.