On climb after takeoff at lga flight crew of widebody transport made late turn at 1800' MSL instead ...

Attributes
ACN	151976
Time
Date	199007
Day	Fri
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	airport : lga
State Reference	NY
Altitude	msl bound lower : 1500 msl bound upper : 1800
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : n90
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Widebody, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Navigation In Use	Other Other
Flight Phase	climbout : initial climbout : intermediate altitude
Route In Use	departure other departure sid : sid
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 6500 flight time type : 500
ASRS Report	151976
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : commercial pilot : instrument
Events
Anomaly	aircraft equipment problem : less severe other spatial deviation
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	other
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Aircraft
Air Traffic Incident	other

Narrative:

The aircraft software includes a mode to inhibit non-critical malfunctions from triggering a master caution until the aircraft is approximately 1500' AGL. On takeoff both engine bleeds (not packs) faulted. We were flying the lga 3 SID, whitestone climb. This departure off runway 13 requires a turn at 1500' or at the lga 3 DME. At 1500' we got a master caution light and ECAM messages: air engine 1 bleed fault, air engine 2 bleed fault. We also had faults in both overhead bleed switches. By the time we had analyzed that the problem was probably associated with the unnecessary packs off takeoff, we were at 5 DME and 1800'. ATC instructed us to start our turn. While I do not now if this turn is required for noise abatement or for traffic sep from jfk traffic, I do know that we missed the turn due to an avoidable system fault. Captain and I are submitting NASA reports to cover the deviation. My report will blame packs off procedures for the distraction that led to the deviation. By the way, once we turned on the packs, the bleed faults corrected themselves. Nothing was wrong with either bleed. This is a prime example of how a forced procedure (packs off takeoff) that is contrary to the proper operation of an aircraft system can have a very negative effect on a flight. This packs off takeoff caused a distraction during a critical phase of flight at an extremely busy airport and in the most congested airspace in the us what makes me angry is that this report, the logbook write up, this pink sheet and above all the SID deviation were all avoidable. Every line pilot, every instrument that flies the widebody transport knows that packs off takeoffs are unnecessary and damaging to the air conditioning/pressurization/bleed systems. I have submitted 2 pink sheets and have hand 1 extensive conversation with standards about changing sopa to allow pilots to determine when packs off is needed. All that is necessary is an additional line on the mgl for flaps 1/fixed/packs on. In our case TOGW was 131600 and maximum allowable TOGW was 146000. This takeoff should have been done with the packs on.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ON CLIMB AFTER TKOF AT LGA FLT CREW OF WDB MADE LATE TURN AT 1800' MSL INSTEAD OF SID 1500'. DISTRACTED BY 2 AIR ENGINE BLEEDS ALERTS.

Narrative: THE ACFT SOFTWARE INCLUDES A MODE TO INHIBIT NON-CRITICAL MALFUNCTIONS FROM TRIGGERING A MASTER CAUTION UNTIL THE ACFT IS APPROX 1500' AGL. ON TKOF BOTH ENG BLEEDS (NOT PACKS) FAULTED. WE WERE FLYING THE LGA 3 SID, WHITESTONE CLB. THIS DEP OFF RWY 13 REQUIRES A TURN AT 1500' OR AT THE LGA 3 DME. AT 1500' WE GOT A MASTER CAUTION LIGHT AND ECAM MESSAGES: AIR ENG 1 BLEED FAULT, AIR ENG 2 BLEED FAULT. WE ALSO HAD FAULTS IN BOTH OVERHEAD BLEED SWITCHES. BY THE TIME WE HAD ANALYZED THAT THE PROB WAS PROBABLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE UNNECESSARY PACKS OFF TKOF, WE WERE AT 5 DME AND 1800'. ATC INSTRUCTED US TO START OUR TURN. WHILE I DO NOT NOW IF THIS TURN IS REQUIRED FOR NOISE ABATEMENT OR FOR TFC SEP FROM JFK TFC, I DO KNOW THAT WE MISSED THE TURN DUE TO AN AVOIDABLE SYS FAULT. CAPT AND I ARE SUBMITTING NASA RPTS TO COVER THE DEVIATION. MY RPT WILL BLAME PACKS OFF PROCS FOR THE DISTR THAT LED TO THE DEVIATION. BY THE WAY, ONCE WE TURNED ON THE PACKS, THE BLEED FAULTS CORRECTED THEMSELVES. NOTHING WAS WRONG WITH EITHER BLEED. THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF HOW A FORCED PROC (PACKS OFF TKOF) THAT IS CONTRARY TO THE PROPER OPERATION OF AN ACFT SYS CAN HAVE A VERY NEGATIVE EFFECT ON A FLT. THIS PACKS OFF TKOF CAUSED A DISTR DURING A CRITICAL PHASE OF FLT AT AN EXTREMELY BUSY ARPT AND IN THE MOST CONGESTED AIRSPACE IN THE U.S. WHAT MAKES ME ANGRY IS THAT THIS RPT, THE LOGBOOK WRITE UP, THIS PINK SHEET AND ABOVE ALL THE SID DEVIATION WERE ALL AVOIDABLE. EVERY LINE PLT, EVERY INSTR THAT FLIES THE WDB KNOWS THAT PACKS OFF TKOFS ARE UNNECESSARY AND DAMAGING TO THE AIR CONDITIONING/PRESSURIZATION/BLEED SYSTEMS. I HAVE SUBMITTED 2 PINK SHEETS AND HAVE HAND 1 EXTENSIVE CONVERSATION WITH STANDARDS ABOUT CHANGING SOPA TO ALLOW PLTS TO DETERMINE WHEN PACKS OFF IS NEEDED. ALL THAT IS NECESSARY IS AN ADDITIONAL LINE ON THE MGL FOR FLAPS 1/FIXED/PACKS ON. IN OUR CASE TOGW WAS 131600 AND MAX ALLOWABLE TOGW WAS 146000. THIS TKOF SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE WITH THE PACKS ON.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

On climb after takeoff at lga flight crew of widebody transport made late turn at 1800' MSL instead of SID 1500'. Distracted by 2 air engine bleeds alerts.