37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 183372 |
Time | |
Date | 199107 |
Day | Sun |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | atc facility : dbn |
State Reference | GA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 10000 msl bound upper : 11000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : ztl tracon : mcn |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Light Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turboprop Eng |
Flight Phase | descent other |
Route In Use | enroute : direct |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 250 flight time total : 8500 flight time type : 4000 |
ASRS Report | 183372 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : instrument |
Events | |
Anomaly | other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : anomaly accepted |
Consequence | Other |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Inter Facility Coordination Failure other |
Narrative:
Atl center routinely descends us on the sinca nine arrival into atlanta to cross 20 mi northwest of dublin at 11000'. Then during the descent they switch us to mcn approach who normally descends us to 10000' upon contact with no reference to the previous center restriction, thus removing the restriction. This particular day however, after macon had given us 10000' (with no restrictions) macon asks us to expedite our descent to 10000' (about 5 min after issuing us 10000') because we have traffic 12 O'clock opp direction at 11000' (or 12000', I'm not sure). So we hurry down another 5 min goes by and mcn switches us to atl and says 'so long and thanks for the help.' apparently there was no confliction with another aircraft, but the point is this: if one controller issues a crossing restriction it's because he must. It may be for traffic sep or letter of agreement compliance. But it is a changed clearance if that restriction is superceded by a new altitude or simply not restated. Solution: simple! As per aim and 7110.65, it states if you still need the restriction (in this case it was for traffic!) then be aware when switching us that the next controller may very well lift that restriction if he hasn't received instructions/coordination otherwise. Macon owns up to 10000'. Al ARTCC owns 11000' and above. This scenario happens continuously, with me and other pilots I know. And many times my copilot will look at me after we received a new altitude and ask, 'do we still need to make the restriction?' so we pilots are not sure as to the procedures or ramifications either.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ATC CLRNC INTERP ALT CROSSING RESTRICTION.
Narrative: ATL CTR ROUTINELY DSNDS US ON THE SINCA NINE ARR INTO ATLANTA TO CROSS 20 MI NW OF DUBLIN AT 11000'. THEN DURING THE DSNT THEY SWITCH US TO MCN APCH WHO NORMALLY DSNDS US TO 10000' UPON CONTACT WITH NO REFERENCE TO THE PREVIOUS CTR RESTRICTION, THUS REMOVING THE RESTRICTION. THIS PARTICULAR DAY HOWEVER, AFTER MACON HAD GIVEN US 10000' (WITH NO RESTRICTIONS) MACON ASKS US TO EXPEDITE OUR DSNT TO 10000' (ABOUT 5 MIN AFTER ISSUING US 10000') BECAUSE WE HAVE TFC 12 O'CLOCK OPP DIRECTION AT 11000' (OR 12000', I'M NOT SURE). SO WE HURRY DOWN ANOTHER 5 MIN GOES BY AND MCN SWITCHES US TO ATL AND SAYS 'SO LONG AND THANKS FOR THE HELP.' APPARENTLY THERE WAS NO CONFLICTION WITH ANOTHER ACFT, BUT THE POINT IS THIS: IF ONE CTLR ISSUES A XING RESTRICTION IT'S BECAUSE HE MUST. IT MAY BE FOR TFC SEP OR LETTER OF AGREEMENT COMPLIANCE. BUT IT IS A CHANGED CLRNC IF THAT RESTRICTION IS SUPERCEDED BY A NEW ALT OR SIMPLY NOT RESTATED. SOLUTION: SIMPLE! AS PER AIM AND 7110.65, IT STATES IF YOU STILL NEED THE RESTRICTION (IN THIS CASE IT WAS FOR TFC!) THEN BE AWARE WHEN SWITCHING US THAT THE NEXT CTLR MAY VERY WELL LIFT THAT RESTRICTION IF HE HASN'T RECEIVED INSTRUCTIONS/COORD OTHERWISE. MACON OWNS UP TO 10000'. AL ARTCC OWNS 11000' AND ABOVE. THIS SCENARIO HAPPENS CONTINUOUSLY, WITH ME AND OTHER PLTS I KNOW. AND MANY TIMES MY COPLT WILL LOOK AT ME AFTER WE RECEIVED A NEW ALT AND ASK, 'DO WE STILL NEED TO MAKE THE RESTRICTION?' SO WE PLTS ARE NOT SURE AS TO THE PROCS OR RAMIFICATIONS EITHER.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.