Controller training in progress TRACON position overload.

Attributes
ACN	261033
Time
Date	199401
Day	Tue
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : lax
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 10000 msl bound upper : 10000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : lax
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Any Unknown or Unlisted Aircraft Manufacturer
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	cruise other
Route In Use	arrival other
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 125 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 1000
ASRS Report	261033
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : commercial pilot : instrument
Events
Anomaly	non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : anomaly accepted
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	other

Narrative:

After being handed off by ZLA to lax approach control, our radio xmissions were repeatedly ignored. Our transmitter was working because we heard others relate that approach was '...blocked...' in spite of our attempts not to speak over any xmissions. The frequency was as crowded as I have ever heard and the controller was talking almost nonstop. The only acknowledgement of our presence was a call by the controller to us to 'standby.' we soon approached the end of the profile, arnes, and still had not received a further clearance. At that point, I technically should have called 'entering holding' and would have more than likely gotten an immediate response. However, that did not seem to be a safe action, knowing that there was a stream of aircraft behind me, all of which were descending to the same altitude, approaching the same fix! In actuality, I did not even notice that there was a published holding pattern at arnes, even after having flown this profile dozens of times! My primary concern was to remain clear of traffic and establish 2- way communication. At any rate, we continued on the localizer, maintaining 10000 ft and tried one more time to get a clearance by stating that we were now '...inside arnes.' this apparently only confused the controller since he came back immediately with 'inside arnes, go to tower.' we felt that going to the tower was not really what the controller wanted us to do. However, after our seeming inability to get any kind of constructive communication established with him, we decided that maybe tower could at least give us a clearance. Lax tower had no idea who or where we were. After we explained all that he coordinated with approach and we were instructed to return to that frequency. Upon checking in this time, we were cleared for the approach to runway 25L and told to remain on '...stay with me until I tell you to change...' frequencys. Upon talking to a supervisor in the TRACON later, I was astonished to learn that the controller had a 'developmental' (student) with him! I cannot imagine what kind of constructive instruction the controller could have provided while being saturated. This may have been a contributing factor in this event.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: CTLR TRAINING IN PROGRESS TRACON POS OVERLOAD.

Narrative: AFTER BEING HANDED OFF BY ZLA TO LAX APCH CTL, OUR RADIO XMISSIONS WERE REPEATEDLY IGNORED. OUR XMITTER WAS WORKING BECAUSE WE HEARD OTHERS RELATE THAT APCH WAS '...BLOCKED...' IN SPITE OF OUR ATTEMPTS NOT TO SPEAK OVER ANY XMISSIONS. THE FREQ WAS AS CROWDED AS I HAVE EVER HEARD AND THE CTLR WAS TALKING ALMOST NONSTOP. THE ONLY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF OUR PRESENCE WAS A CALL BY THE CTLR TO US TO 'STANDBY.' WE SOON APCHED THE END OF THE PROFILE, ARNES, AND STILL HAD NOT RECEIVED A FURTHER CLRNC. AT THAT POINT, I TECHNICALLY SHOULD HAVE CALLED 'ENTERING HOLDING' AND WOULD HAVE MORE THAN LIKELY GOTTEN AN IMMEDIATE RESPONSE. HOWEVER, THAT DID NOT SEEM TO BE A SAFE ACTION, KNOWING THAT THERE WAS A STREAM OF ACFT BEHIND ME, ALL OF WHICH WERE DSNDING TO THE SAME ALT, APCHING THE SAME FIX! IN ACTUALITY, I DID NOT EVEN NOTICE THAT THERE WAS A PUBLISHED HOLDING PATTERN AT ARNES, EVEN AFTER HAVING FLOWN THIS PROFILE DOZENS OF TIMES! MY PRIMARY CONCERN WAS TO REMAIN CLR OF TFC AND ESTABLISH 2- WAY COM. AT ANY RATE, WE CONTINUED ON THE LOC, MAINTAINING 10000 FT AND TRIED ONE MORE TIME TO GET A CLRNC BY STATING THAT WE WERE NOW '...INSIDE ARNES.' THIS APPARENTLY ONLY CONFUSED THE CTLR SINCE HE CAME BACK IMMEDIATELY WITH 'INSIDE ARNES, GO TO TWR.' WE FELT THAT GOING TO THE TWR WAS NOT REALLY WHAT THE CTLR WANTED US TO DO. HOWEVER, AFTER OUR SEEMING INABILITY TO GET ANY KIND OF CONSTRUCTIVE COM ESTABLISHED WITH HIM, WE DECIDED THAT MAYBE TWR COULD AT LEAST GIVE US A CLRNC. LAX TWR HAD NO IDEA WHO OR WHERE WE WERE. AFTER WE EXPLAINED ALL THAT HE COORDINATED WITH APCH AND WE WERE INSTRUCTED TO RETURN TO THAT FREQ. UPON CHKING IN THIS TIME, WE WERE CLRED FOR THE APCH TO RWY 25L AND TOLD TO REMAIN ON '...STAY WITH ME UNTIL I TELL YOU TO CHANGE...' FREQS. UPON TALKING TO A SUPVR IN THE TRACON LATER, I WAS ASTONISHED TO LEARN THAT THE CTLR HAD A 'DEVELOPMENTAL' (STUDENT) WITH HIM! I CANNOT IMAGINE WHAT KIND OF CONSTRUCTIVE INSTRUCTION THE CTLR COULD HAVE PROVIDED WHILE BEING SATURATED. THIS MAY HAVE BEEN A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN THIS EVENT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.