Narrative:

The civit arrival into lax used to be a profile descent. Profile dscnts are (were) a clearance for both the depicted route and altitudes. The civit arrival is now a STAR. The difference between a STAR and profile descent was (is) the altitude clearance. Stars are for routing only. Clearance for altitudes must be received separately. This was something that was often covered in recurrent training so people wouldn't be confused. Socal approach expects people to comply with the altitudes on the civit STAR without giving a clearance to do so. This is very confusing. I queried ATC on this and they said there has been a lot of confusion about it since the change. No wonder! Have the definitions for stars and profile dscnts changed? Is the civit STAR special? If so, shouldn't it be more clearly defined? If not, shouldn't ATC give proper clearance? No one in the chief pilot's office was sure what to do. They didn't have an aim to refer to. Most people are happy to keep doing it 'the way we always did.' this is a 'gotcha' waiting to happen. Someone will descend on a STAR somewhere thinking he had altitude clearance. Let's hope the consequences aren't too dire. Yes, I understand that most stars say 'expect altitude.' and civit says 'descend to altitude.' the main questions boils down to the difference between a STAR and profile descent. Having different procedural names was helpful. It was a clue as to what was expected. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: FAA western region procedures specialist said that washington headquarters mandated profile dscnts be changed to STAR's. Confusion comes when a flight crew is cleared for a profile descent but is not cleared for an arrival. The arrival is part of the initial clearance. Flcs do not know when to leave altitude. Reporter was advised to comply with the restrs as they are on the plate. Reporter was also advised that his interpretation was correct about profiles versus stars. Altitude restrs were added to stars as they are changed from profiles to stars.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: NAME CHANGE FROM PROFILE DSCNT TO STAR ARR CAUSE'S FLC CONFUSION CLRNC INTERP.

Narrative: THE CIVIT ARR INTO LAX USED TO BE A PROFILE DSCNT. PROFILE DSCNTS ARE (WERE) A CLRNC FOR BOTH THE DEPICTED RTE AND ALTS. THE CIVIT ARR IS NOW A STAR. THE DIFFERENCE BTWN A STAR AND PROFILE DSCNT WAS (IS) THE ALT CLRNC. STARS ARE FOR RTING ONLY. CLRNC FOR ALTS MUST BE RECEIVED SEPARATELY. THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS OFTEN COVERED IN RECURRENT TRAINING SO PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE CONFUSED. SOCAL APCH EXPECTS PEOPLE TO COMPLY WITH THE ALTS ON THE CIVIT STAR WITHOUT GIVING A CLRNC TO DO SO. THIS IS VERY CONFUSING. I QUERIED ATC ON THIS AND THEY SAID THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT IT SINCE THE CHANGE. NO WONDER! HAVE THE DEFINITIONS FOR STARS AND PROFILE DSCNTS CHANGED? IS THE CIVIT STAR SPECIAL? IF SO, SHOULDN'T IT BE MORE CLRLY DEFINED? IF NOT, SHOULDN'T ATC GIVE PROPER CLRNC? NO ONE IN THE CHIEF PLT'S OFFICE WAS SURE WHAT TO DO. THEY DIDN'T HAVE AN AIM TO REFER TO. MOST PEOPLE ARE HAPPY TO KEEP DOING IT 'THE WAY WE ALWAYS DID.' THIS IS A 'GOTCHA' WAITING TO HAPPEN. SOMEONE WILL DSND ON A STAR SOMEWHERE THINKING HE HAD ALT CLRNC. LET'S HOPE THE CONSEQUENCES AREN'T TOO DIRE. YES, I UNDERSTAND THAT MOST STARS SAY 'EXPECT ALT.' AND CIVIT SAYS 'DSND TO ALT.' THE MAIN QUESTIONS BOILS DOWN TO THE DIFFERENCE BTWN A STAR AND PROFILE DSCNT. HAVING DIFFERENT PROCEDURAL NAMES WAS HELPFUL. IT WAS A CLUE AS TO WHAT WAS EXPECTED. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: FAA WESTERN REGION PROCS SPECIALIST SAID THAT WASHINGTON HEADQUARTERS MANDATED PROFILE DSCNTS BE CHANGED TO STAR'S. CONFUSION COMES WHEN A FLC IS CLRED FOR A PROFILE DSCNT BUT IS NOT CLRED FOR AN ARR. THE ARR IS PART OF THE INITIAL CLRNC. FLCS DO NOT KNOW WHEN TO LEAVE ALT. RPTR WAS ADVISED TO COMPLY WITH THE RESTRS AS THEY ARE ON THE PLATE. RPTR WAS ALSO ADVISED THAT HIS INTERP WAS CORRECT ABOUT PROFILES VERSUS STARS. ALT RESTRS WERE ADDED TO STARS AS THEY ARE CHANGED FROM PROFILES TO STARS.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.