37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 296130 |
Time | |
Date | 199502 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl single value : 12000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : zau |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B767-200 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | Other Other |
Flight Phase | descent other |
Route In Use | arrival other arrival star : star enroute airway : lax |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : cfi pilot : commercial pilot : flight engineer pilot : atp pilot : instrument |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 160 flight time total : 15000 flight time type : 270 |
ASRS Report | 296130 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : commercial |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : overshoot non adherence : clearance |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa other other : unspecified |
Resolutory Action | flight crew : became reoriented flight crew : returned to intended course or assigned course |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Aircraft |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
While in autoplt VNAV controled descent on civet approach for runway 25L at lax, ATC requested we maintain 320 KTS and then changed to 250 KTS prior to leveloff planned at 12000 ft. First officer and captain noted aircraft switched to altitude capture mode above 12000 ft as expected and switched attention to making 250 KT speed restr by bremr. Aircraft in high rate of descent due to full speed brake and idle power. Altitude capture mode went right through expected 12000 ft leveloff and was manually returned to 12000 ft with a call to ATC. No problem noted by ATC, but this shouldn't happen! Possibly due to mode VNAV not differentiating or readout between 'des now' and 'des dir' unclr which mode aircraft was in. Learned not to rely on software. General comment: too much automation leads to too many options leads to uncertainty! Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: the reporter flies the B-767 and B-757 for an airline. There was an aci on the jumpseat on this trip and witnessed the missed leveloff. The aci was not at all concerned about this and thought that the crew did a good job. Both pilots saw altitude capture initiated, then diverted their attention. After a descent is started, it is very difficult for the crew to determine if the aircraft is in 'des now' or 'des dir.' 'des now' commands the aircraft to descend so as to make any preprogrammed restrs. 'Des dir' will wipe out any restrs. The reporter does not like the 'don't worry about it, you'll get the rest on the line' approach to training. Neither pilot knows in which descent mode the aircraft was operating, nor why the aircraft failed to capture its altitude.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: DSCNT THROUGH ASSIGNED ALT.
Narrative: WHILE IN AUTOPLT VNAV CTLED DSCNT ON CIVET APCH FOR RWY 25L AT LAX, ATC REQUESTED WE MAINTAIN 320 KTS AND THEN CHANGED TO 250 KTS PRIOR TO LEVELOFF PLANNED AT 12000 FT. FO AND CAPT NOTED ACFT SWITCHED TO ALT CAPTURE MODE ABOVE 12000 FT AS EXPECTED AND SWITCHED ATTN TO MAKING 250 KT SPD RESTR BY BREMR. ACFT IN HIGH RATE OF DSCNT DUE TO FULL SPD BRAKE AND IDLE PWR. ALT CAPTURE MODE WENT RIGHT THROUGH EXPECTED 12000 FT LEVELOFF AND WAS MANUALLY RETURNED TO 12000 FT WITH A CALL TO ATC. NO PROB NOTED BY ATC, BUT THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN! POSSIBLY DUE TO MODE VNAV NOT DIFFERENTIATING OR READOUT BTWN 'DES NOW' AND 'DES DIR' UNCLR WHICH MODE ACFT WAS IN. LEARNED NOT TO RELY ON SOFTWARE. GENERAL COMMENT: TOO MUCH AUTOMATION LEADS TO TOO MANY OPTIONS LEADS TO UNCERTAINTY! CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE RPTR FLIES THE B-767 AND B-757 FOR AN AIRLINE. THERE WAS AN ACI ON THE JUMPSEAT ON THIS TRIP AND WITNESSED THE MISSED LEVELOFF. THE ACI WAS NOT AT ALL CONCERNED ABOUT THIS AND THOUGHT THAT THE CREW DID A GOOD JOB. BOTH PLTS SAW ALT CAPTURE INITIATED, THEN DIVERTED THEIR ATTN. AFTER A DSCNT IS STARTED, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE CREW TO DETERMINE IF THE ACFT IS IN 'DES NOW' OR 'DES DIR.' 'DES NOW' COMMANDS THE ACFT TO DSND SO AS TO MAKE ANY PREPROGRAMMED RESTRS. 'DES DIR' WILL WIPE OUT ANY RESTRS. THE RPTR DOES NOT LIKE THE 'DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, YOU'LL GET THE REST ON THE LINE' APCH TO TRAINING. NEITHER PLT KNOWS IN WHICH DSCNT MODE THE ACFT WAS OPERATING, NOR WHY THE ACFT FAILED TO CAPTURE ITS ALT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.