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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 367259 |
Time | |
Date | 199704 |
Day | Sun |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | atc facility : bwz airport : ewr |
State Reference | NJ |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 10000 msl bound upper : 10000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | IMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : n90 |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Commercial Fixed Wing |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | Other Other |
Flight Phase | cruise other other |
Route In Use | enroute : on vectors |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : cfi pilot : commercial pilot : flight engineer pilot : instrument pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 12000 flight time type : 3000 |
ASRS Report | 367259 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Events | |
Anomaly | other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : unable |
Consequence | Other |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | other |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Narrative:
En route sfo to ewr with about 1 hour hold, received notice from dispatch of 60-75 min delays to ewr. We worked up contingency plans, and confirmed preferred diversion airport in case the hold lasted too long. On the descent (williamsport 1 arrival), we received holding at penns, efc XA46Z. This was just about the limit of our holding ability, but still acceptable. As we got close to our efc, we were carefully computing our bingo fuel based on our burn to lga and our desired minimum fuel to land at either airport. We were in our last turn in hold before asking for our alternate when we were cleared out of the hold. We expected to land with approximately 8000 pounds of fuel at that point. Just inbound from penns, we were handed off to approach, who gave us a vector heading of 010 degrees. We confirmed they meant 010 degrees and not 100 degrees, since 010 degrees was back away from the airport. 010 degrees it was, followed by several big s-turns in a daisy chain. We were watching this on TCASII and recalculated landing with about 6000 pounds, which while still plenty legal, was getting below our comfort level. Any further delay and we would have declared minimum fuel and gone straight to ewr or lga. (All this at the end of an 11 hour duty day and now 8 hours 28 min flight time). My big complaint is that we expected to go relatively direct to the approach upon leaving the hold, and based our acceptance of that efc on that. Neither center nor approach advised us that we would be vectored almost an additional 1/2 hour upon exiting the hold. Had we at least known that, we probably would have diverted. It made it very difficult to plan appropriately. I feel that if ATC has any significant delays for aircraft after they exit the hold, this should be communicated to all affected aircraft as soon as possible, preferably along with the holding instructions. Some day someone will cut it too thin and be in serious trouble with unexpected further delays. I'd rather just stay in the hold until able to proceed to the approach, rather than have ATC try to camouflage the delay with excessive vectors after the hold. At least that way I can plan my fuel better.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: LGT FLC COMPLAINS THAT, AFTER EXTENSIVE HOLDING IN THE EWR AREA, THEY WERE VECTORED OUT OF THE HOLD BUT GIVEN S- TURNS WHICH ADDED ALMOST ONE HALF HR TO THE HOLD TIME. AT THIS TIME, FUEL WAS NEARING MARGINAL. RPTR FEELS THAT ANY NEED FOR EXTENSIVE VECTORING SHOULD BE COMMUNICATED TO THE FLCS SO THAT THEY CAN MORE ACCURATELY FIGURE THEIR BINGO FUEL.
Narrative: ENRTE SFO TO EWR WITH ABOUT 1 HR HOLD, RECEIVED NOTICE FROM DISPATCH OF 60-75 MIN DELAYS TO EWR. WE WORKED UP CONTINGENCY PLANS, AND CONFIRMED PREFERRED DIVERSION ARPT IN CASE THE HOLD LASTED TOO LONG. ON THE DSCNT (WILLIAMSPORT 1 ARR), WE RECEIVED HOLDING AT PENNS, EFC XA46Z. THIS WAS JUST ABOUT THE LIMIT OF OUR HOLDING ABILITY, BUT STILL ACCEPTABLE. AS WE GOT CLOSE TO OUR EFC, WE WERE CAREFULLY COMPUTING OUR BINGO FUEL BASED ON OUR BURN TO LGA AND OUR DESIRED MINIMUM FUEL TO LAND AT EITHER ARPT. WE WERE IN OUR LAST TURN IN HOLD BEFORE ASKING FOR OUR ALTERNATE WHEN WE WERE CLRED OUT OF THE HOLD. WE EXPECTED TO LAND WITH APPROX 8000 LBS OF FUEL AT THAT POINT. JUST INBOUND FROM PENNS, WE WERE HANDED OFF TO APCH, WHO GAVE US A VECTOR HDG OF 010 DEGS. WE CONFIRMED THEY MEANT 010 DEGS AND NOT 100 DEGS, SINCE 010 DEGS WAS BACK AWAY FROM THE ARPT. 010 DEGS IT WAS, FOLLOWED BY SEVERAL BIG S-TURNS IN A DAISY CHAIN. WE WERE WATCHING THIS ON TCASII AND RECALCULATED LNDG WITH ABOUT 6000 LBS, WHICH WHILE STILL PLENTY LEGAL, WAS GETTING BELOW OUR COMFORT LEVEL. ANY FURTHER DELAY AND WE WOULD HAVE DECLARED MINIMUM FUEL AND GONE STRAIGHT TO EWR OR LGA. (ALL THIS AT THE END OF AN 11 HR DUTY DAY AND NOW 8 HRS 28 MIN FLT TIME). MY BIG COMPLAINT IS THAT WE EXPECTED TO GO RELATIVELY DIRECT TO THE APCH UPON LEAVING THE HOLD, AND BASED OUR ACCEPTANCE OF THAT EFC ON THAT. NEITHER CTR NOR APCH ADVISED US THAT WE WOULD BE VECTORED ALMOST AN ADDITIONAL 1/2 HR UPON EXITING THE HOLD. HAD WE AT LEAST KNOWN THAT, WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DIVERTED. IT MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO PLAN APPROPRIATELY. I FEEL THAT IF ATC HAS ANY SIGNIFICANT DELAYS FOR ACFT AFTER THEY EXIT THE HOLD, THIS SHOULD BE COMMUNICATED TO ALL AFFECTED ACFT ASAP, PREFERABLY ALONG WITH THE HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS. SOME DAY SOMEONE WILL CUT IT TOO THIN AND BE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE WITH UNEXPECTED FURTHER DELAYS. I'D RATHER JUST STAY IN THE HOLD UNTIL ABLE TO PROCEED TO THE APCH, RATHER THAN HAVE ATC TRY TO CAMOUFLAGE THE DELAY WITH EXCESSIVE VECTORS AFTER THE HOLD. AT LEAST THAT WAY I CAN PLAN MY FUEL BETTER.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.