An air carrier MD11 flight crew was assigned an altitude below the MSA for that area by two differen...

Attributes
ACN	400252
Time
Date	199804
Day	Sun
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	airport : sha
State Reference	FO
Altitude	agl bound lower : 450 agl bound upper : 900
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : sha
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	MD-11
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	Other Other
Flight Phase	descent : approach landing other
Route In Use	arrival other arrival star : star
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 100 flight time total : 8700 flight time type : 380
ASRS Report	400252
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : commercial pilot : instrument pilot : flight engineer pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 80 flight time total : 4500 flight time type : 200
ASRS Report	400087
Events
Anomaly	conflict : ground critical other anomaly other other spatial deviation
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	other other
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	other
Situations
ATC Facility	procedure or policy : unspecified

Narrative:

Cleared for STAR vmb 1A arrival to runway 18. Shortly after vmb, approximately 15 DME east received clearance to descend to 450 meters. Since this is below the sector safe altitude specified on the area chart of 800 meters I questioned ATC as to whether they meant to descend immediately or at some point on the arrival. They said immediately. ATC also said to keep speed up to 350 KTS as we were high for the approach. Asked for verification that the 250 KT speed restr below 10000 ft was removed. They indicated that it was removed. After an uneventful landing I called the tower on the phone to discuss the clrncs. The individual I spoke with indicated that 450 meters was their minimum vectoring altitude and that it was ok to descend to that altitude at the point at which I received the clearance. I expressed to them my displeasure with this clearance since none of the approach plates or the area chart indicate that 450 meters is a safe altitude. Shanghai tower indicated this was an unusual clearance for them to issue. Upon receiving our departure clearance we were told to level off at 450 meters. I refused this since the A599 corridor from wb to sx has a terrain clearance minimum altitude of 893 meters. After issuing 6 altitudes (5 of which I refused due to terrain clearance issues), I accepted a final altitude of 9600 meters. Departure was uneventful. Significant communication errors existed in part due to the differences in language. Suggest encouraging shanghai to issue proper clrncs to agree with chart minimum altitudes or change the appropriate commercial charts to reflect actual procedures for shanghai.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: AN ACR MD11 FLC WAS ASSIGNED AN ALT BELOW THE MSA FOR THAT AREA BY TWO DIFFERENT CTLRS. THE FLC WAS AWARE OF THE SURROUNDING TERRAIN AND REFUSED THE ASSIGNMENTS.

Narrative: CLRED FOR STAR VMB 1A ARR TO RWY 18. SHORTLY AFTER VMB, APPROX 15 DME E RECEIVED CLRNC TO DSND TO 450 METERS. SINCE THIS IS BELOW THE SECTOR SAFE ALT SPECIFIED ON THE AREA CHART OF 800 METERS I QUESTIONED ATC AS TO WHETHER THEY MEANT TO DSND IMMEDIATELY OR AT SOME POINT ON THE ARR. THEY SAID IMMEDIATELY. ATC ALSO SAID TO KEEP SPD UP TO 350 KTS AS WE WERE HIGH FOR THE APCH. ASKED FOR VERIFICATION THAT THE 250 KT SPD RESTR BELOW 10000 FT WAS REMOVED. THEY INDICATED THAT IT WAS REMOVED. AFTER AN UNEVENTFUL LNDG I CALLED THE TWR ON THE PHONE TO DISCUSS THE CLRNCS. THE INDIVIDUAL I SPOKE WITH INDICATED THAT 450 METERS WAS THEIR MINIMUM VECTORING ALT AND THAT IT WAS OK TO DSND TO THAT ALT AT THE POINT AT WHICH I RECEIVED THE CLRNC. I EXPRESSED TO THEM MY DISPLEASURE WITH THIS CLRNC SINCE NONE OF THE APCH PLATES OR THE AREA CHART INDICATE THAT 450 METERS IS A SAFE ALT. SHANGHAI TWR INDICATED THIS WAS AN UNUSUAL CLRNC FOR THEM TO ISSUE. UPON RECEIVING OUR DEP CLRNC WE WERE TOLD TO LEVEL OFF AT 450 METERS. I REFUSED THIS SINCE THE A599 CORRIDOR FROM WB TO SX HAS A TERRAIN CLRNC MINIMUM ALT OF 893 METERS. AFTER ISSUING 6 ALTS (5 OF WHICH I REFUSED DUE TO TERRAIN CLRNC ISSUES), I ACCEPTED A FINAL ALT OF 9600 METERS. DEP WAS UNEVENTFUL. SIGNIFICANT COM ERRORS EXISTED IN PART DUE TO THE DIFFERENCES IN LANGUAGE. SUGGEST ENCOURAGING SHANGHAI TO ISSUE PROPER CLRNCS TO AGREE WITH CHART MINIMUM ALTS OR CHANGE THE APPROPRIATE COMMERCIAL CHARTS TO REFLECT ACTUAL PROCS FOR SHANGHAI.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

An air carrier MD11 flight crew was assigned an altitude below the MSA for that area by two different controllers. The flight crew was aware of the surrounding terrain and refused the assignments.