Narrative:

We received initial taxi clearance from spot XXX at den to runway 17L via microphone, to hold short of taxiway echo-delta. We read back and complied with that clearance. After holding short of echo delta for a min or so, ground called and said, 'aircraft XXX make the right turn on echo-delta but hold short of the 17-right final.' again, the first officer read back the clearance correctly, and I taxied the airplane around the 90 degree turn onto taxiway echo-delta, and moved forward approximately fifty ft. I stopped the aircraft well short of the runway 17R final approach course and set the parking brake. Den was landing aircraft on 17 right at the time and I could clearly see the aircraft on final. A few moments later, ground called and said, 'aircraft XXX, I told you to hold short of the 17R final, now taxi ahead without delay!' the first officer responded, 'we are short of runway 17 right, do you still want us to continue?' ground said, 'my radar shows you right in the middle of it, taxi forward without delay!' I had already begun moving ahead with the first instruction to 'taxi ahead without delay' and we continued via echo delta to runway 17L. Ground handed us off to the tower without further comment. I observed an aircraft that was on short final to runway 17R pass behind and above us to land after we had cleared the final approach path. It seems to me that den ground has their own ideas about what constitutes the 'runway 17R final' as it pertains to taxiway echo-delta. Unfortunately, those ideas appear to be based on their ground radar returns, which we have no way of duplicating in the cockpit. If this is normal taxi route to runway 17L, and if it requires sequencing taxiing aircraft with lndgs on runway 17R, then it would seem to be the proverbial 'no-brainer' to have a lighted, hold short line and/or sign to mark the spot. Unfortunately, there is nothing! In fact our aircraft was well short of the extended right-hand runway edge of runway 17R, and both myself, the first officer, and another jump-seating airline pilot confirmed this. After being told to 'taxi ahead without delay,' our aircraft moved at least 20 ft forward before we came abeam the right-hand runway edge lights of runway 17R, then the approach lighting, then finally the left-hand runway edge lighting. There was no confusion about our position on our part. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter advised they held short of the extended runway 17R edge line, as they projected the runway edge path line through taxiway ed. He alleges that there are no hold short markings that protect what was stated as the 'runway 17R final.' the reporter suggests that a hold short line be painted, or appropriate signage, that the pilot can see will protect the 'final' for runway 17R. Additional information: a den specialist advised that he was unaware of any markings on taxiway ed that identify the runway 17R 'final area' and that there are no asde map markings. Different controllers use different criteria to identify this area.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ACR PLT CHALLENGED BY DEN GC WHEN TURNING FROM TXWY M TO TXWY ED AS PROCEEDING INTO THE 'RWY 17R FINAL' AREA.

Narrative: WE RECEIVED INITIAL TAXI CLRNC FROM SPOT XXX AT DEN TO RWY 17L VIA MIKE, TO HOLD SHORT OF TXWY ECHO-DELTA. WE READ BACK AND COMPLIED WITH THAT CLRNC. AFTER HOLDING SHORT OF ECHO DELTA FOR A MIN OR SO, GND CALLED AND SAID, 'ACFT XXX MAKE THE R TURN ON ECHO-DELTA BUT HOLD SHORT OF THE 17-RIGHT FINAL.' AGAIN, THE FO READ BACK THE CLRNC CORRECTLY, AND I TAXIED THE AIRPLANE AROUND THE 90 DEG TURN ONTO TXWY ECHO-DELTA, AND MOVED FORWARD APPROX FIFTY FT. I STOPPED THE ACFT WELL SHORT OF THE RWY 17R FINAL APCH COURSE AND SET THE PARKING BRAKE. DEN WAS LNDG ACFT ON 17 RIGHT AT THE TIME AND I COULD CLEARLY SEE THE ACFT ON FINAL. A FEW MOMENTS LATER, GND CALLED AND SAID, 'ACFT XXX, I TOLD YOU TO HOLD SHORT OF THE 17R FINAL, NOW TAXI AHEAD WITHOUT DELAY!' THE FO RESPONDED, 'WE ARE SHORT OF RWY 17 RIGHT, DO YOU STILL WANT US TO CONTINUE?' GND SAID, 'MY RADAR SHOWS YOU RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, TAXI FORWARD WITHOUT DELAY!' I HAD ALREADY BEGUN MOVING AHEAD WITH THE FIRST INSTRUCTION TO 'TAXI AHEAD WITHOUT DELAY' AND WE CONTINUED VIA ECHO DELTA TO RWY 17L. GND HANDED US OFF TO THE TWR WITHOUT FURTHER COMMENT. I OBSERVED AN ACFT THAT WAS ON SHORT FINAL TO RWY 17R PASS BEHIND AND ABOVE US TO LAND AFTER WE HAD CLRED THE FINAL APCH PATH. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT DEN GND HAS THEIR OWN IDEAS ABOUT WHAT CONSTITUTES THE 'RWY 17R FINAL' AS IT PERTAINS TO TXWY ECHO-DELTA. UNFORTUNATELY, THOSE IDEAS APPEAR TO BE BASED ON THEIR GND RADAR RETURNS, WHICH WE HAVE NO WAY OF DUPLICATING IN THE COCKPIT. IF THIS IS NORMAL TAXI RTE TO RWY 17L, AND IF IT REQUIRES SEQUENCING TAXIING ACFT WITH LNDGS ON RWY 17R, THEN IT WOULD SEEM TO BE THE PROVERBIAL 'NO-BRAINER' TO HAVE A LIGHTED, HOLD SHORT LINE AND/OR SIGN TO MARK THE SPOT. UNFORTUNATELY, THERE IS NOTHING! IN FACT OUR ACFT WAS WELL SHORT OF THE EXTENDED RIGHT-HAND RWY EDGE OF RWY 17R, AND BOTH MYSELF, THE FO, AND ANOTHER JUMP-SEATING AIRLINE PLT CONFIRMED THIS. AFTER BEING TOLD TO 'TAXI AHEAD WITHOUT DELAY,' OUR ACFT MOVED AT LEAST 20 FT FORWARD BEFORE WE CAME ABEAM THE RIGHT-HAND RWY EDGE LIGHTS OF RWY 17R, THEN THE APCH LIGHTING, THEN FINALLY THE LEFT-HAND RWY EDGE LIGHTING. THERE WAS NO CONFUSION ABOUT OUR POSITION ON OUR PART. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR ADVISED THEY HELD SHORT OF THE EXTENDED RWY 17R EDGE LINE, AS THEY PROJECTED THE RWY EDGE PATH LINE THROUGH TXWY ED. HE ALLEGES THAT THERE ARE NO HOLD SHORT MARKINGS THAT PROTECT WHAT WAS STATED AS THE 'RWY 17R FINAL.' THE RPTR SUGGESTS THAT A HOLD SHORT LINE BE PAINTED, OR APPROPRIATE SIGNAGE, THAT THE PLT CAN SEE WILL PROTECT THE 'FINAL' FOR RWY 17R. ADDITIONAL INFO: A DEN SPECIALIST ADVISED THAT HE WAS UNAWARE OF ANY MARKINGS ON TXWY ED THAT IDENTIFY THE RWY 17R 'FINAL AREA' AND THAT THERE ARE NO ASDE MAP MARKINGS. DIFFERENT CTLRS USE DIFFERENT CRITERIA TO IDENTIFY THIS AREA.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.