37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 557354 |
Time | |
Date | 200208 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : iad.airport |
State Reference | VA |
Altitude | agl single value : 0 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Widebody, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | other other |
Flight Phase | ground : parked |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : commercial pilot : flight engineer pilot : instrument pilot : multi engine |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 225 flight time total : 12000 flight time type : 225 |
ASRS Report | 557354 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Events | |
Anomaly | non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | other |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance Chart Or Publication Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | other |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : iad.tower |
Narrative:
While in the blocks, prior to engine start and taxi out, we received a data link pre departure clearance from dulles clearance delivery. The remarks section stated, 'expect vector to pryme 2 departure procedure, maintain 3000 ft.' the pryme 2 departure (pryme RNAV 2 departure dated jun/fri/02) for our departure route over the paleo fix clearly stated 'maintain 10000 ft.' fortunately, we called clearance delivery and questioned them on which altitude they wanted to maintain on departure. They stated '3000 ft.' I feel this is a violation waiting to happen. If departure wants to assign an RNAV route without the depicted altitudes they should state this clearly and unambiguously in the clearance. Dulles arrival is notorious for assigning RNAV arrival rtes but not allowing us to fly the depicted altitudes. Instead, they routinely give us the very altitudes depicted on the arrival at the depicted points. At least in the arrival phase, they are consistent about stating very clearly you are not cleared for the altitudes. Unfortunately, they are not using that same level of caution on the new pryme 2 departure. Bottom line: use the RNAV approach and departure procedures in total or go back to vectoring. Mix and match is a remedy for disaster.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN ALT AMENDMENT ON AN RNAV PROC VIA PDC WARRANTS A CALL BY THE FO OF A B767 TO CLRNC DELIVERY AT IAD, VA.
Narrative: WHILE IN THE BLOCKS, PRIOR TO ENG START AND TAXI OUT, WE RECEIVED A DATA LINK PDC FROM DULLES CLRNC DELIVERY. THE REMARKS SECTION STATED, 'EXPECT VECTOR TO PRYME 2 DEP PROC, MAINTAIN 3000 FT.' THE PRYME 2 DEP (PRYME RNAV 2 DEP DATED JUN/FRI/02) FOR OUR DEP RTE OVER THE PALEO FIX CLRLY STATED 'MAINTAIN 10000 FT.' FORTUNATELY, WE CALLED CLRNC DELIVERY AND QUESTIONED THEM ON WHICH ALT THEY WANTED TO MAINTAIN ON DEP. THEY STATED '3000 FT.' I FEEL THIS IS A VIOLATION WAITING TO HAPPEN. IF DEP WANTS TO ASSIGN AN RNAV RTE WITHOUT THE DEPICTED ALTS THEY SHOULD STATE THIS CLRLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY IN THE CLRNC. DULLES ARR IS NOTORIOUS FOR ASSIGNING RNAV ARR RTES BUT NOT ALLOWING US TO FLY THE DEPICTED ALTS. INSTEAD, THEY ROUTINELY GIVE US THE VERY ALTS DEPICTED ON THE ARR AT THE DEPICTED POINTS. AT LEAST IN THE ARR PHASE, THEY ARE CONSISTENT ABOUT STATING VERY CLRLY YOU ARE NOT CLRED FOR THE ALTS. UNFORTUNATELY, THEY ARE NOT USING THAT SAME LEVEL OF CAUTION ON THE NEW PRYME 2 DEP. BOTTOM LINE: USE THE RNAV APCH AND DEP PROCS IN TOTAL OR GO BACK TO VECTORING. MIX AND MATCH IS A REMEDY FOR DISASTER.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.