37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 560089 |
Time | |
Date | 200209 |
Day | Sat |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | intersection : obkee |
State Reference | NV |
Altitude | msl single value : 11000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : l30.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B737-500 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Route In Use | arrival star : skebr1 |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 10000 flight time type : 8000 |
ASRS Report | 560089 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : overshoot altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure non adherence : far |
Independent Detector | atc equipment other atc equipment : radar other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | FAA ATC Human Performance Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : l30.tracon |
Narrative:
I went off frequency to talk to company about our gate assignment. When I returned, las approach had told us to descend via the SKEBR1 arrival, maintain 8000 ft. I was not on frequency to hear the clearance. My first officer explained he read back descend via the SKEBR1 'except' maintain 8000 ft. We were both under the impression that approach wanted us to descend to 8000 ft because, when the first officer made his read back, nothing else was mentioned by approach. Approach shortly thereafter told us to level at 11000 ft and explained that descending to 8000 ft wasn't what he wanted. We explained that we thought he wanted us down at 8000 ft because we read back except maintain 8000 ft, meaning that he didn't want us to descend to 7000 ft at kimme. I called las approach and the controller explained what they meant and also said that they were just compiling data and that no further action would be taken. The verbiage given by approach for some reason is very misleading. I don't know if it's just that I (and others) are confusing this procedure and it's different verbiage with that of the arrs into lax which seem to work quite well with no confusion. I absolutely believe, it's this verbiage that is causing the confusion. Approach could perhaps wait until after povoc (at 9000 ft) to give the 'descend to 8000 ft' clearance and this perhaps would prevent future misunderstandings.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B737 FLC CLRNC QUESTION CAUSES MISINTERP OF APCH ISSUANCE OF SKEBR RNAV STAR INTO LAS.
Narrative: I WENT OFF FREQ TO TALK TO COMPANY ABOUT OUR GATE ASSIGNMENT. WHEN I RETURNED, LAS APCH HAD TOLD US TO DSND VIA THE SKEBR1 ARR, MAINTAIN 8000 FT. I WAS NOT ON FREQ TO HEAR THE CLRNC. MY FO EXPLAINED HE READ BACK DSND VIA THE SKEBR1 'EXCEPT' MAINTAIN 8000 FT. WE WERE BOTH UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT APCH WANTED US TO DSND TO 8000 FT BECAUSE, WHEN THE FO MADE HIS READ BACK, NOTHING ELSE WAS MENTIONED BY APCH. APCH SHORTLY THEREAFTER TOLD US TO LEVEL AT 11000 FT AND EXPLAINED THAT DSNDING TO 8000 FT WASN'T WHAT HE WANTED. WE EXPLAINED THAT WE THOUGHT HE WANTED US DOWN AT 8000 FT BECAUSE WE READ BACK EXCEPT MAINTAIN 8000 FT, MEANING THAT HE DIDN'T WANT US TO DSND TO 7000 FT AT KIMME. I CALLED LAS APCH AND THE CTLR EXPLAINED WHAT THEY MEANT AND ALSO SAID THAT THEY WERE JUST COMPILING DATA AND THAT NO FURTHER ACTION WOULD BE TAKEN. THE VERBIAGE GIVEN BY APCH FOR SOME REASON IS VERY MISLEADING. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S JUST THAT I (AND OTHERS) ARE CONFUSING THIS PROC AND IT'S DIFFERENT VERBIAGE WITH THAT OF THE ARRS INTO LAX WHICH SEEM TO WORK QUITE WELL WITH NO CONFUSION. I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE, IT'S THIS VERBIAGE THAT IS CAUSING THE CONFUSION. APCH COULD PERHAPS WAIT UNTIL AFTER POVOC (AT 9000 FT) TO GIVE THE 'DSND TO 8000 FT' CLRNC AND THIS PERHAPS WOULD PREVENT FUTURE MISUNDERSTANDINGS.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.