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Attributes | |
ACN | 579607 |
Time | |
Date | 200304 |
Day | Mon |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : dtw.airport |
State Reference | MI |
Altitude | agl single value : 0 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tower : dtw.tower |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | DC-9 30 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | climbout : takeoff |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Controlling Facilities | tower : dtw.tower |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | A320 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | climbout : initial |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : cfi pilot : flight engineer pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 20000 flight time type : 10000 |
ASRS Report | 579607 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Events | |
Anomaly | other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | controller : separated traffic other |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance ATC Human Performance |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
Departing runway 22L in dtw, we were cleared for takeoff while the A320 ahead of us was 8 seconds short of beginning to rotate for takeoff. I hesitated until I saw them begin to rotate before bringing the throttles up to initiate our takeoff, although the first officer had acknowledged the takeoff clearance. The A319 behind us was cleared for takeoff while we were passing 105 KTS accelerating towards a V1 speed of 135 KTS. I believe this is an unsafe practice on the part of ATC, especially because in some cases (although not this time), they will nag you to hurry up if you hesitate and even cancel the takeoff clearance if you defend the hesitation. My fear is that someone will someday be stampeded by ATC into accepting a premature takeoff clearance and the aircraft ahead of them will decide to abort just short of V1. The following aircraft may then be faced with a choice between a high speed (over 80 KTS) abort on the same runway or a low altitude fly-over. Either case is unsafe. ATC needs to break this habit of premature takeoff clrncs and crews need to have consciousness raised about the hazard this presents. Also, airline companies need to avoid putting undue pressure on ATC to 'push tin.' callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter said he believes controllers are using unsafe practices to expedite traffic. He said his most recent takeoff incident occurred at dtw when he was cleared for takeoff and noticed that an air bus departing on the same runway had not yet rotated. He said controllers are also pushing traffic in this manner at most other large airports. He said, if a pilot appears to hesitate when cleared for takeoff, he is pulled off the runway and sent to the back of the line.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: PIC IS CONCERNED THAT HE RECEIVED A TKOF CLRNC BEFORE THE PRECEDING ACFT WAS AIRBORNE.
Narrative: DEPARTING RWY 22L IN DTW, WE WERE CLRED FOR TKOF WHILE THE A320 AHEAD OF US WAS 8 SECONDS SHORT OF BEGINNING TO ROTATE FOR TKOF. I HESITATED UNTIL I SAW THEM BEGIN TO ROTATE BEFORE BRINGING THE THROTTLES UP TO INITIATE OUR TKOF, ALTHOUGH THE FO HAD ACKNOWLEDGED THE TKOF CLRNC. THE A319 BEHIND US WAS CLRED FOR TKOF WHILE WE WERE PASSING 105 KTS ACCELERATING TOWARDS A V1 SPD OF 135 KTS. I BELIEVE THIS IS AN UNSAFE PRACTICE ON THE PART OF ATC, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IN SOME CASES (ALTHOUGH NOT THIS TIME), THEY WILL NAG YOU TO HURRY UP IF YOU HESITATE AND EVEN CANCEL THE TKOF CLRNC IF YOU DEFEND THE HESITATION. MY FEAR IS THAT SOMEONE WILL SOMEDAY BE STAMPEDED BY ATC INTO ACCEPTING A PREMATURE TKOF CLRNC AND THE ACFT AHEAD OF THEM WILL DECIDE TO ABORT JUST SHORT OF V1. THE FOLLOWING ACFT MAY THEN BE FACED WITH A CHOICE BTWN A HIGH SPD (OVER 80 KTS) ABORT ON THE SAME RWY OR A LOW ALT FLY-OVER. EITHER CASE IS UNSAFE. ATC NEEDS TO BREAK THIS HABIT OF PREMATURE TKOF CLRNCS AND CREWS NEED TO HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS RAISED ABOUT THE HAZARD THIS PRESENTS. ALSO, AIRLINE COMPANIES NEED TO AVOID PUTTING UNDUE PRESSURE ON ATC TO 'PUSH TIN.' CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR SAID HE BELIEVES CTLRS ARE USING UNSAFE PRACTICES TO EXPEDITE TFC. HE SAID HIS MOST RECENT TKOF INCIDENT OCCURRED AT DTW WHEN HE WAS CLRED FOR TKOF AND NOTICED THAT AN AIR BUS DEPARTING ON THE SAME RWY HAD NOT YET ROTATED. HE SAID CTLRS ARE ALSO PUSHING TFC IN THIS MANNER AT MOST OTHER LARGE ARPTS. HE SAID, IF A PLT APPEARS TO HESITATE WHEN CLRED FOR TKOF, HE IS PULLED OFF THE RWY AND SENT TO THE BACK OF THE LINE.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.