37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 765450 |
Time | |
Date | 200712 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : atl.airport |
State Reference | GA |
Altitude | msl single value : 14000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : ztl.artcc |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Challenger CL600 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | descent : intermediate altitude |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time type : 3500 |
ASRS Report | 765450 |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : clearance |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance controller : issued alert |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Chart Or Publication Flight Crew Human Performance ATC Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Narrative:
About halfway to atlanta; prior to the beginning of the arrival over gcv; which is the same initial fix for both arrs; we were given the clearance to change our arrival to the la grange 1 arrival via gcv. We complied with our new clearance; and both crew members verified the waypoints on the chart with the FMS. As we approached atl; the ATIS was obtained; and the active runways in use were to the west direction. Soon after; we were given a pilot discretion descent to cross tiroe at 14000 ft; which matches the expected altitude to cross tiroe instructions via the arrival chart. Both crew members verified the altitude crossing instructions; and the altitude was selected in the altitude selector; and input into the waypoint on the FMS. Soon after; we were handed off to a new controller; and upon check-in we advised them of our current altitude we were descending through and that we were crossing tiroe at 14000 ft. (During this flight I was the PNF; and this check-in was performed by the PF as I was off the frequency talking to operations; but it was discussed after the incident that the altitudes were passed on to the controller.) as we were approaching the honie intersection; about a mi away from the fix; the controller asked us if we were going to be able to make our crossing restr at honie. We replied that we were descending to cross tiroe at 14000 ft; and the controller replied that our crossing restr was to cross honie at 12000 ft. We were just leveling at 14000 ft at this time; and were not going to make that restr. Both crew members were confused at this clearance; we replied again that we were never cleared down to 12000 ft. The controller gave us a response that I cannot remember at this time; but we complied with his new instructions. We selected the new altitude and expedited our descent to 12000 ft. We were soon handed off to the approach controller and the flight continued uneventfully with no response from any ATC facility about the incident. After reviewing the incident with my first officer on the ground; we both agreed that at no time prior to that intersection; had we been instructed to descend to 12000 ft on the arrival. Upon further review of the arrival; the crossing restr we apparently had not complied with is normally given to aircraft when the airport is landing to the east instead of the west; which may have led to the confusion with us and the controller. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: the reporter believes that miscommunication between controllers may have led to the confusion with one controller issuing a clearance to cross tiroe at 14000 feet while the second controller was expecting honie at 12000 feet. He does not believe that the flight crew misunderstood the clearance. The controller did not appear to be too upset and no loss of separation occurred.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: CL600 FLT CREW WAS APPARENTLY ISSUED CLEARANCE TO CROSS HONIE AT 12000 FEET ON THE LGC1 ARRIVAL TO ATL; WHILE THE APPROACH CHART STATES EXPECT TIROE AT 14000 FEET LANDING WEST. THIS WAS THE CLEARANCE THE FLT CREW BELIEVED THEY HEARD.
Narrative: ABOUT HALFWAY TO ATLANTA; PRIOR TO THE BEGINNING OF THE ARR OVER GCV; WHICH IS THE SAME INITIAL FIX FOR BOTH ARRS; WE WERE GIVEN THE CLRNC TO CHANGE OUR ARR TO THE LA GRANGE 1 ARR VIA GCV. WE COMPLIED WITH OUR NEW CLRNC; AND BOTH CREW MEMBERS VERIFIED THE WAYPOINTS ON THE CHART WITH THE FMS. AS WE APCHED ATL; THE ATIS WAS OBTAINED; AND THE ACTIVE RWYS IN USE WERE TO THE W DIRECTION. SOON AFTER; WE WERE GIVEN A PLT DISCRETION DSCNT TO CROSS TIROE AT 14000 FT; WHICH MATCHES THE EXPECTED ALT TO CROSS TIROE INSTRUCTIONS VIA THE ARR CHART. BOTH CREW MEMBERS VERIFIED THE ALT XING INSTRUCTIONS; AND THE ALT WAS SELECTED IN THE ALT SELECTOR; AND INPUT INTO THE WAYPOINT ON THE FMS. SOON AFTER; WE WERE HANDED OFF TO A NEW CTLR; AND UPON CHK-IN WE ADVISED THEM OF OUR CURRENT ALT WE WERE DSNDING THROUGH AND THAT WE WERE XING TIROE AT 14000 FT. (DURING THIS FLT I WAS THE PNF; AND THIS CHK-IN WAS PERFORMED BY THE PF AS I WAS OFF THE FREQ TALKING TO OPS; BUT IT WAS DISCUSSED AFTER THE INCIDENT THAT THE ALTS WERE PASSED ON TO THE CTLR.) AS WE WERE APCHING THE HONIE INTXN; ABOUT A MI AWAY FROM THE FIX; THE CTLR ASKED US IF WE WERE GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE OUR XING RESTR AT HONIE. WE REPLIED THAT WE WERE DSNDING TO CROSS TIROE AT 14000 FT; AND THE CTLR REPLIED THAT OUR XING RESTR WAS TO CROSS HONIE AT 12000 FT. WE WERE JUST LEVELING AT 14000 FT AT THIS TIME; AND WERE NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT RESTR. BOTH CREW MEMBERS WERE CONFUSED AT THIS CLRNC; WE REPLIED AGAIN THAT WE WERE NEVER CLRED DOWN TO 12000 FT. THE CTLR GAVE US A RESPONSE THAT I CANNOT REMEMBER AT THIS TIME; BUT WE COMPLIED WITH HIS NEW INSTRUCTIONS. WE SELECTED THE NEW ALT AND EXPEDITED OUR DSCNT TO 12000 FT. WE WERE SOON HANDED OFF TO THE APCH CTLR AND THE FLT CONTINUED UNEVENTFULLY WITH NO RESPONSE FROM ANY ATC FACILITY ABOUT THE INCIDENT. AFTER REVIEWING THE INCIDENT WITH MY FO ON THE GND; WE BOTH AGREED THAT AT NO TIME PRIOR TO THAT INTXN; HAD WE BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DSND TO 12000 FT ON THE ARR. UPON FURTHER REVIEW OF THE ARR; THE XING RESTR WE APPARENTLY HAD NOT COMPLIED WITH IS NORMALLY GIVEN TO ACFT WHEN THE ARPT IS LNDG TO THE E INSTEAD OF THE W; WHICH MAY HAVE LED TO THE CONFUSION WITH US AND THE CTLR. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE REPORTER BELIEVES THAT MISCOMMUNICATION BETWEEN CONTROLLERS MAY HAVE LED TO THE CONFUSION WITH ONE CONTROLLER ISSUING A CLEARANCE TO CROSS TIROE AT 14000 FEET WHILE THE SECOND CONTROLLER WAS EXPECTING HONIE AT 12000 FEET. HE DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT THE FLT CREW MISUNDERSTOOD THE CLEARANCE. THE CONTROLLER DID NOT APPEAR TO BE TOO UPSET AND NO LOSS OF SEPARATION OCCURRED.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.