37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 771722 |
Time | |
Date | 200801 |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : hdn.airport |
State Reference | CO |
Altitude | msl single value : 11000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | IMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : zdv.artcc |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B757-200 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
ASRS Report | 771722 |
Events | |
Anomaly | non adherence : company policies non adherence : published procedure other spatial deviation |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : anomaly accepted |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Company Flight Crew Human Performance Airspace Structure Chart Or Publication |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Narrative:
The arrival information for hdn states that (in IFR conditions) 'if cleared to execute instrument approach; the entire approach must be flown.' for the ILS Z runway 10 approach this would normally include the procedure turn. This assumes you are probably not in radar contact when commencing the approach since our company approach page indicates that you are probably below radar contact when below 11000 ft MSL. Last week the controller had us holding on the ILS Z runway 10 localizer at 11000 ft at inede intersection. (This is not the published holding pattern at che). While nearing the end of our first outbound leg; the controller told us to turn right to a 090 degree heading; intercept the localizer at or above 10000 ft and cleared for the ILS Z runway 10 approach. This indicated to me that we were obviously still in radar contact and being vectored to the localizer. The controller intended us to proceed inbound. There was a moment of confusion for us though since the company approach pages emphasized that the entire procedure must be flown if still IFR. My understanding is that the page note assumes you are not being vectored to the approach (you are probably descending in a holding pattern at che or cleared directly to inede); and are not in radar contact. Being vectored to a straight-in approach in radar contact should not require; and the controller is not expecting; you to reverse course and make the procedure turn. Is this understanding correct? If so; perhaps the company approach page should be amended to indicate that the entire procedure is required only when not being vectored to the approach and/or not in radar contact. In addition; the airliner holding above us in the stack at inede told the controller to be advised that they would be joining the localizer from the holding pattern when cleared for the approach. In other words; no procedure turn. The controller acknowledged that. Is that procedure legal for us? There is no published holding pattern for inede on the chart. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter stated that since radar coverage in the hdn area has improved; ATC no longer requires a procedure turn for all approachs. Most aircraft are now vectored over the IAF and given straight in approach clearances. The reporter stated that his air carrier acknowledged the noted procedure is outdated and will correct it so that it conforms to the current ATC practices.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN ACR PILOT IN HOLDING AT HDN IS GIVEN AN RNAV Z RWY 10 APCH CLRNC AT INEDE AND ASSUMES NO PROCEDURE TURN IS REQUIRED BECAUSE OF THE INITIAL VECTOR.
Narrative: THE ARR INFO FOR HDN STATES THAT (IN IFR CONDITIONS) 'IF CLRED TO EXECUTE INST APCH; THE ENTIRE APCH MUST BE FLOWN.' FOR THE ILS Z RWY 10 APCH THIS WOULD NORMALLY INCLUDE THE PROC TURN. THIS ASSUMES YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT IN RADAR CONTACT WHEN COMMENCING THE APCH SINCE OUR COMPANY APCH PAGE INDICATES THAT YOU ARE PROBABLY BELOW RADAR CONTACT WHEN BELOW 11000 FT MSL. LAST WK THE CTLR HAD US HOLDING ON THE ILS Z RWY 10 LOC AT 11000 FT AT INEDE INTXN. (THIS IS NOT THE PUBLISHED HOLDING PATTERN AT CHE). WHILE NEARING THE END OF OUR FIRST OUTBOUND LEG; THE CTLR TOLD US TO TURN R TO A 090 DEG HDG; INTERCEPT THE LOC AT OR ABOVE 10000 FT AND CLRED FOR THE ILS Z RWY 10 APCH. THIS INDICATED TO ME THAT WE WERE OBVIOUSLY STILL IN RADAR CONTACT AND BEING VECTORED TO THE LOC. THE CTLR INTENDED US TO PROCEED INBOUND. THERE WAS A MOMENT OF CONFUSION FOR US THOUGH SINCE THE COMPANY APCH PAGES EMPHASIZED THAT THE ENTIRE PROC MUST BE FLOWN IF STILL IFR. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE PAGE NOTE ASSUMES YOU ARE NOT BEING VECTORED TO THE APCH (YOU ARE PROBABLY DSNDING IN A HOLDING PATTERN AT CHE OR CLRED DIRECTLY TO INEDE); AND ARE NOT IN RADAR CONTACT. BEING VECTORED TO A STRAIGHT-IN APCH IN RADAR CONTACT SHOULD NOT REQUIRE; AND THE CTLR IS NOT EXPECTING; YOU TO REVERSE COURSE AND MAKE THE PROC TURN. IS THIS UNDERSTANDING CORRECT? IF SO; PERHAPS THE COMPANY APCH PAGE SHOULD BE AMENDED TO INDICATE THAT THE ENTIRE PROC IS REQUIRED ONLY WHEN NOT BEING VECTORED TO THE APCH AND/OR NOT IN RADAR CONTACT. IN ADDITION; THE AIRLINER HOLDING ABOVE US IN THE STACK AT INEDE TOLD THE CTLR TO BE ADVISED THAT THEY WOULD BE JOINING THE LOC FROM THE HOLDING PATTERN WHEN CLRED FOR THE APCH. IN OTHER WORDS; NO PROC TURN. THE CTLR ACKNOWLEDGED THAT. IS THAT PROC LEGAL FOR US? THERE IS NO PUBLISHED HOLDING PATTERN FOR INEDE ON THE CHART. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: REPORTER STATED THAT SINCE RADAR COVERAGE IN THE HDN AREA HAS IMPROVED; ATC NO LONGER REQUIRES A PROCEDURE TURN FOR ALL APCHS. MOST ACFT ARE NOW VECTORED OVER THE IAF AND GIVEN STRAIGHT IN APCH CLEARANCES. THE REPORTER STATED THAT HIS ACR ACKNOWLEDGED THE NOTED PROCEDURE IS OUTDATED AND WILL CORRECT IT SO THAT IT CONFORMS TO THE CURRENT ATC PRACTICES.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of May 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.