37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 828204 |
Time | |
Date | 200903 |
Local Time Of Day | 0601-1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | MMH.Airport |
State Reference | CA |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Dawn |
Aircraft 1 | |
Make Model Name | Cessna Citation Sovereign (C680) |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Flight Phase | Initial Climb |
Route In Use | Other Other Published IFR Departure |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Function | First Officer Pilot Flying |
Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) |
Person 2 | |
Function | Pilot Not Flying Captain |
Events | |
Anomaly | Deviation - Procedural Clearance Deviation - Procedural Published Material / Policy Deviation - Track / Heading All Types |
Narrative:
We had been cleared to depart mmh via the runway 9 obstacle departure procedure; then to our first fix of nikol. The obstacle departure procedure called for a heading of 050 degrees; join the 307 degree radial inbound to bih; then join the 322 degree radial outbound to nikol. We considered this clearance on the ground and realized that the procedure takes us away from our first fix; then an almost 180 degree turn to loop back to it; and with the unlimited visibility; obstacle clearance would not be an issue. 2 other factors affected our decision: if we programmed this departure on our FMS it would cause us to turn well before bih (the turn is 165 degrees); and if we overflew bih; by the time we got there our speed and altitude would be such that the turn back to the north would be extremely wide and take us very far south of bih. It was decided to climb quickly; establish radar contact; and hope to get a vector to our route. We departed and climbed on the 050 degree heading. Climbing through 17;000 ft; ZOA reported us radar contact; and since we were now well clear of any possible terrain and just about on the radial from bih to nikol; we turned toward nikol. ATC asked us if we were heading to bih; and we told him no; we were in the turn to nikol. He then lectured us on instrument clearances; gave us a phone number to call; and cleared us to our next waypoint. My captain phoned the center at our destination and spoke with a supervisor who agreed that the procedure was not designed for FMS equipped aircraft or aircraft capable of our performance. I discovered later; while looking at the charts; that had we overflown bih; the subsequently wide turn might very well have put us in both ZLA airspace and an MOA; both of which begin about 10 miles south of bih. The best course of action should have been to turn toward bih as published; knowing now that by the time we got there we would have been well in radar contact and probably given a turn toward our route; this was clearly what the controller expected. However; it seems clear during the call to oakland's supervisor; that this procedure is not intended for jet aircraft and overflying bih before turning back to the north is probably worse than turning early. The best solution; quite honestly; is an RNAV procedure for FMS equipped aircraft that doesn't involve such a heroic turn. Without that; however; the best we can do is get word out to our pilots about this potential trap. We were told by the supervisor that this happens all the time. Without further guidance; fly the procedure exactly as depicted; and any problems that might arise (the wide turn at bih; for example) will highlight the issue to ATC.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: Cessna 680 flight crew opted not to fly the obstacle departure clearance out of MMH as cleared in their IFR flight plan.
Narrative: We had been cleared to depart MMH via the Runway 9 obstacle departure procedure; then to our first fix of NIKOL. The obstacle departure procedure called for a heading of 050 degrees; join the 307 degree radial inbound to BIH; then join the 322 degree radial outbound to NIKOL. We considered this clearance on the ground and realized that the procedure takes us away from our first fix; then an almost 180 degree turn to loop back to it; and with the unlimited visibility; obstacle clearance would not be an issue. 2 other factors affected our decision: if we programmed this departure on our FMS it would cause us to turn well before BIH (the turn is 165 degrees); and if we overflew BIH; by the time we got there our speed and altitude would be such that the turn back to the north would be extremely wide and take us very far south of BIH. It was decided to climb quickly; establish radar contact; and hope to get a vector to our route. We departed and climbed on the 050 degree heading. Climbing through 17;000 FT; ZOA reported us radar contact; and since we were now well clear of any possible terrain and just about on the radial from BIH to NIKOL; we turned toward NIKOL. ATC asked us if we were heading to BIH; and we told him no; we were in the turn to NIKOL. He then lectured us on instrument clearances; gave us a phone number to call; and cleared us to our next waypoint. My Captain phoned the Center at our destination and spoke with a Supervisor who agreed that the procedure was not designed for FMS equipped aircraft or aircraft capable of our performance. I discovered later; while looking at the charts; that had we overflown BIH; the subsequently wide turn might very well have put us in both ZLA airspace and an MOA; both of which begin about 10 miles south of BIH. The best course of action should have been to turn toward BIH as published; knowing now that by the time we got there we would have been well in radar contact and probably given a turn toward our route; this was clearly what the Controller expected. However; it seems clear during the call to Oakland's Supervisor; that this procedure is not intended for jet aircraft and overflying BIH before turning back to the north is probably worse than turning early. The best solution; quite honestly; is an RNAV procedure for FMS equipped aircraft that doesn't involve such a heroic turn. Without that; however; the best we can do is get word out to our pilots about this potential trap. We were told by the Supervisor that this happens all the time. Without further guidance; fly the procedure exactly as depicted; and any problems that might arise (the wide turn at BIH; for example) will highlight the issue to ATC.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of April 2012 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.