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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 86908 |
Time | |
Date | 198805 |
Day | Tue |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | agl bound lower : 400 agl bound upper : 400 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tower : lax artcc : zdv |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Navigation In Use | Other |
Flight Phase | descent : approach landing other |
Route In Use | approach : visual enroute : on vectors |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 144 flight time total : 17055 flight time type : 262 |
ASRS Report | 86908 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : cfi pilot : flight engineer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 100 flight time total : 6300 flight time type : 100 |
ASRS Report | 87090 |
Events | |
Anomaly | non adherence : clearance other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance flight crew : returned to intended course or assigned course |
Consequence | faa : investigated |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation other |
Narrative:
ATIS in effect at the time was clear 10 71/55 2409 011 ILS and visual approachs runways 24R and 25L. Runway 25R and runway 24L ILS out of service. Runway 24L closed upon initial contact with lax approach control we were advised to expect a stadium visual approach to runway 24R. We were assigned a heading of 070 degree after passing santa monica VOR. We were subsequently cleared to descend to 4500' MSL. Traffic to follow was indicated but we were unable to positively identify it. As we approach the point at which we were to turn base leg we still were not positive as to the exact aircraft we were to follow and communicated this to the controller. The controller then assigned us a heading of 160 degree and stated the we were now being vectored for an approach to runway 25L to follow a widebody transport. We positively identified the widebody transport while still in the turn to 160 degree. Since the widebody transport looked quite close I stopped my turn at 145 degree and then began a shallow turn to the assigned heading. As soon as we indicated we had the widebody transport in sight the controller cleared us for the approach to follow the widebody transport. We had the runway 25L localizer frequency tuned and identified (109.9) and we had the inbound course selected (249 degree). We were shortly cleared to lax tower and called them on 120.95. On our initial call the first officer inquired as to our spacing on the widebody transport as we had entered a haze layer which made distance judgement difficult. The reply was it looks good'. The tower operator cleared us to land. Both the first officer and I are certain we heard cleared to land on runway 25L. Approximately 1 to 1 1/2 miles from the runway threshold I saw what appeared to be an aircraft holding in position on runway 25L. I asked the first officer to confirm our landing clearance for runway 25L. He did so and at this time the tower operator replied negative cleared to land on 25R. Our altitude at this time was approximately 400' above field level (afl). I performed a sidestep maneuver at this time and lined up with runway 25R. At no time during our approach do either I or my first officer recall the tower operator either clearing us to land on runway 25R or correcting our transmissions indicating our understanding that we were cleared to land on runway 25L until the one made at approximately 400' stet to 1 1/2 miles from the runway threshold. Supplemental information from acn #87090: this is written 2 days after the incident and I have been unofficially advised that the tower had, in fact, cleared us to land on 25R, specifying that runway in three separate conversations. In retrospect I can only make the following reflections: the captain and I were obviously of the belief that we were to land on 25L. Call it mind set, preoccupation with separation, wake turbulence, avoidance behind the widebody transport or chalk up two more victims of the monkey see - monkey do syndrome ('follow the widebody transport.'). Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: callback revealed that the widebody transport the medium large transport was told to follow did in fact land on runway 25L, and tower local controller made no mention when asked by medium large transport about spacing on the widebody transport that the medium large transport was to land on 25R so the flight crew was further led to believe they were on the proper runway. Reporter also stated that they were met at ramp by FAA and the FAA is now trying to charge PF with careless operation due to side step maneuver at low altitude and runway confusion is apparently an issue. To date flight crew has not been able to hear tape playback. Second reporters information on being cleared to runway 25R was on tower personnel and not on tape replay. FAA inspectors saw side step maneuver from their office some distance away.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR MLG INSTRUCTED TO FOLLOW WDB WHICH LANDED ON LEFT RWY. TWR THEN CLAIMED MLG WAS INSTRUCTED TO LAND ON RIGHT RWY TO WHICH MLG THEN SIDESTEPPED AT LOW ALT RESULTING IN FAA CHARGE OF CARELESS AND WRECKLESS OPERATION.
Narrative: ATIS IN EFFECT AT THE TIME WAS CLR 10 71/55 2409 011 ILS AND VISUAL APCHS RWYS 24R AND 25L. RWY 25R AND RWY 24L ILS OUT OF SERVICE. RWY 24L CLOSED UPON INITIAL CONTACT WITH LAX APCH CTL WE WERE ADVISED TO EXPECT A STADIUM VISUAL APCH TO RWY 24R. WE WERE ASSIGNED A HEADING OF 070 DEG AFTER PASSING SANTA MONICA VOR. WE WERE SUBSEQUENTLY CLRED TO DESCEND TO 4500' MSL. TFC TO FOLLOW WAS INDICATED BUT WE WERE UNABLE TO POSITIVELY IDENTIFY IT. AS WE APCH THE POINT AT WHICH WE WERE TO TURN BASE LEG WE STILL WERE NOT POSITIVE AS TO THE EXACT ACFT WE WERE TO FOLLOW AND COMMUNICATED THIS TO THE CTLR. THE CTLR THEN ASSIGNED US A HEADING OF 160 DEG AND STATED THE WE WERE NOW BEING VECTORED FOR AN APCH TO RWY 25L TO FOLLOW A WDB. WE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED THE WDB WHILE STILL IN THE TURN TO 160 DEG. SINCE THE WDB LOOKED QUITE CLOSE I STOPPED MY TURN AT 145 DEG AND THEN BEGAN A SHALLOW TURN TO THE ASSIGNED HEADING. AS SOON AS WE INDICATED WE HAD THE WDB IN SIGHT THE CTLR CLRED US FOR THE APCH TO FOLLOW THE WDB. WE HAD THE RWY 25L LOC FREQ TUNED AND IDENTIFIED (109.9) AND WE HAD THE INBOUND COURSE SELECTED (249 DEG). WE WERE SHORTLY CLRED TO LAX TWR AND CALLED THEM ON 120.95. ON OUR INITIAL CALL THE F/O INQUIRED AS TO OUR SPACING ON THE WDB AS WE HAD ENTERED A HAZE LAYER WHICH MADE DISTANCE JUDGEMENT DIFFICULT. THE REPLY WAS IT LOOKS GOOD'. THE TWR OPERATOR CLRED US TO LAND. BOTH THE F/O AND I ARE CERTAIN WE HEARD CLRED TO LAND ON RWY 25L. APPROX 1 TO 1 1/2 MILES FROM THE RWY THRESHOLD I SAW WHAT APPEARED TO BE AN ACFT HOLDING IN POSITION ON RWY 25L. I ASKED THE F/O TO CONFIRM OUR LNDG CLRNC FOR RWY 25L. HE DID SO AND AT THIS TIME THE TWR OPERATOR REPLIED NEGATIVE CLRED TO LAND ON 25R. OUR ALT AT THIS TIME WAS APPROX 400' ABOVE FIELD LEVEL (AFL). I PERFORMED A SIDESTEP MANEUVER AT THIS TIME AND LINED UP WITH RWY 25R. AT NO TIME DURING OUR APCH DO EITHER I OR MY F/O RECALL THE TWR OPERATOR EITHER CLEARING US TO LAND ON RWY 25R OR CORRECTING OUR TRANSMISSIONS INDICATING OUR UNDERSTANDING THAT WE WERE CLRED TO LAND ON RWY 25L UNTIL THE ONE MADE AT APPROX 400' STET TO 1 1/2 MILES FROM THE RWY THRESHOLD. SUPPLEMENTAL INFORMATION FROM ACN #87090: THIS IS WRITTEN 2 DAYS AFTER THE INCIDENT AND I HAVE BEEN UNOFFICIALLY ADVISED THAT THE TWR HAD, IN FACT, CLRED US TO LAND ON 25R, SPECIFYING THAT RWY IN THREE SEPARATE CONVERSATIONS. IN RETROSPECT I CAN ONLY MAKE THE FOLLOWING REFLECTIONS: THE CAPT AND I WERE OBVIOUSLY OF THE BELIEF THAT WE WERE TO LAND ON 25L. CALL IT MIND SET, PREOCCUPATION WITH SEPARATION, WAKE TURBULENCE, AVOIDANCE BEHIND THE WDB OR CHALK UP TWO MORE VICTIMS OF THE MONKEY SEE - MONKEY DO SYNDROME ('FOLLOW THE WDB.'). CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH REPORTER REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION: CALLBACK REVEALED THAT THE WDB THE MLG WAS TOLD TO FOLLOW DID IN FACT LAND ON RWY 25L, AND TWR LCL CTLR MADE NO MENTION WHEN ASKED BY MLG ABOUT SPACING ON THE WDB THAT THE MLG WAS TO LAND ON 25R SO THE FLT CREW WAS FURTHER LED TO BELIEVE THEY WERE ON THE PROPER RWY. RPTR ALSO STATED THAT THEY WERE MET AT RAMP BY FAA AND THE FAA IS NOW TRYING TO CHARGE PF WITH CARELESS OPERATION DUE TO SIDE STEP MANEUVER AT LOW ALT AND RWY CONFUSION IS APPARENTLY AN ISSUE. TO DATE FLT CREW HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO HEAR TAPE PLAYBACK. SEC REPORTERS INFORMATION ON BEING CLRED TO RWY 25R WAS ON TWR PERSONNEL AND NOT ON TAPE REPLAY. FAA INSPECTORS SAW SIDE STEP MANEUVER FROM THEIR OFFICE SOME DISTANCE AWAY.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.