Narrative:

We were clrd to cross 20 northeast of homeland VOR at 14000 by lax center then handed off to ont approach. There was no response from ont. We went back to lax and were given the same frequency again. Still no response. We went back to lax. Frequency was congested and we hadn't established communication yet when lax called us. We responded. He pointed out company traffic at 11 O'clock 14000' (headed for homeland also) told us to descend immediately to 10000 and turn left to 170. He was speaking rapidly and the captain had not understood his instructions. I pointed at the traffic and yelled 'descend, go down!' I reported out of 12800 and lax handed us off to ont but this time on a different frequency. Ont was giving our company flight a turn to avoid us with the comment 'we don't know who he is talking to'. Our company did a 360. We had been given a right turn to 250 by lax. Separation standards were not violated only out of pure luck. When you point two jets at each other at the same altitude, then give one a frequency that's not in use, you're asking for trouble. Supplemental information from acn 89850: ontario approach called traffic at 2 O'clock at 13200' (which was our altitude). We visually picked up the traffic. He was at our altitude and close enough to read his north number. We immediately started a left turn. At this point ontario approach told us to take whatever action necessary to avoid the other medium large transport. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: at time of incident, reporter thought that separation was not lost. After consultation with his captain, and after a conversation by telephone with ont, he now knows that separation was lost. Pilot reporter speculated that ZLA sent them to a frequency that ont was no longer using. After doing this twice with no success, ZLA inquired about frequency to ont and then sent reporter's aircraft to the right frequency. While this was going on, reporter's aircraft entered ont's airspace without being in contact with ont, and therefore, ont could do nothing to prevent the loss of separation between his aircraft and the other medium large transport. Both aircraft were clrd direct to hdf VOR, one descending to 13000 and the other descending to 14000. When lateral separation was lost on the two different routes, they were at the same altitude.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: LESS THAN STANDARD SEPARATION BETWEEN 2 ACR MLGS INBOUND TO THE SAME VOR, WITH ONE DESCENDING THROUGH THE ALT OF THE OTHER.

Narrative: WE WERE CLRD TO CROSS 20 NE OF HOMELAND VOR AT 14000 BY LAX CENTER THEN HANDED OFF TO ONT APCH. THERE WAS NO RESPONSE FROM ONT. WE WENT BACK TO LAX AND WERE GIVEN THE SAME FREQ AGAIN. STILL NO RESPONSE. WE WENT BACK TO LAX. FREQ WAS CONGESTED AND WE HADN'T ESTABLISHED COMMUNICATION YET WHEN LAX CALLED US. WE RESPONDED. HE POINTED OUT COMPANY TFC AT 11 O'CLOCK 14000' (HEADED FOR HOMELAND ALSO) TOLD US TO DESCEND IMMEDIATELY TO 10000 AND TURN LEFT TO 170. HE WAS SPEAKING RAPIDLY AND THE CAPT HAD NOT UNDERSTOOD HIS INSTRUCTIONS. I POINTED AT THE TFC AND YELLED 'DSND, GO DOWN!' I REPORTED OUT OF 12800 AND LAX HANDED US OFF TO ONT BUT THIS TIME ON A DIFFERENT FREQ. ONT WAS GIVING OUR COMPANY FLT A TURN TO AVOID US WITH THE COMMENT 'WE DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS TALKING TO'. OUR COMPANY DID A 360. WE HAD BEEN GIVEN A RIGHT TURN TO 250 BY LAX. SEPARATION STANDARDS WERE NOT VIOLATED ONLY OUT OF PURE LUCK. WHEN YOU POINT TWO JETS AT EACH OTHER AT THE SAME ALT, THEN GIVE ONE A FREQ THAT'S NOT IN USE, YOU'RE ASKING FOR TROUBLE. SUPPLEMENTAL INFORMATION FROM ACN 89850: ONTARIO APCH CALLED TFC AT 2 O'CLOCK AT 13200' (WHICH WAS OUR ALT). WE VISUALLY PICKED UP THE TFC. HE WAS AT OUR ALT AND CLOSE ENOUGH TO READ HIS N NUMBER. WE IMMEDIATELY STARTED A LEFT TURN. AT THIS POINT ONTARIO APCH TOLD US TO TAKE WHATEVER ACTION NECESSARY TO AVOID THE OTHER MLG. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH REPORTER REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION: AT TIME OF INCIDENT, RPTR THOUGHT THAT SEPARATION WAS NOT LOST. AFTER CONSULTATION WITH HIS CAPT, AND AFTER A CONVERSATION BY TELEPHONE WITH ONT, HE NOW KNOWS THAT SEPARATION WAS LOST. PLT RPTR SPECULATED THAT ZLA SENT THEM TO A FREQ THAT ONT WAS NO LONGER USING. AFTER DOING THIS TWICE WITH NO SUCCESS, ZLA INQUIRED ABOUT FREQ TO ONT AND THEN SENT RPTR'S ACFT TO THE RIGHT FREQ. WHILE THIS WAS GOING ON, RPTR'S ACFT ENTERED ONT'S AIRSPACE WITHOUT BEING IN CONTACT WITH ONT, AND THEREFORE, ONT COULD DO NOTHING TO PREVENT THE LOSS OF SEPARATION BETWEEN HIS ACFT AND THE OTHER MLG. BOTH ACFT WERE CLRD DIRECT TO HDF VOR, ONE DESCENDING TO 13000 AND THE OTHER DESCENDING TO 14000. WHEN LATERAL SEPARATION WAS LOST ON THE TWO DIFFERENT ROUTES, THEY WERE AT THE SAME ALT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.