Air carrier medium large transport undershoots crossing restriction in descent.

Attributes
ACN	136918
Time
Date	199002
Day	Sat
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : yqg airport : det
State Reference	ON
Altitude	msl bound lower : 10000 msl bound upper : 12000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Flight Phase	descent other
Route In Use	enroute airway : v103
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : instrument
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 3700 flight time type : 1100
ASRS Report	136918
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 255 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 6000
ASRS Report	136344
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : undershoot non adherence : clearance non adherence other
Independent Detector	other controllera other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	controller : issued new clearance other
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

En route on a flight from stl to det we were at cruise altitude, cleared to cross cratr at 10000'. Captain, who was flying, started setting up the VOR's for cratr and began to calculate a descent. I went off to get the ATIS. I couldn't receive it so I came back on and questioned the captain about starting the descent, at which time he did. I began to calculate the descent and realized we would have had to start down immediately in order to make the restriction with a normal descent. I again went off to get ATIS and took a few mins to get it as the det ATIS and ord ground are the same frequency. When I came back I realized the captain wasn't going to make it down in time. I started to say something, but ATC questioned our altitude as we were passing cratr at 12000'. I was a little startled as I had been off frequency. They called and told us to level off at 12000' before I could answer him at which time we were out of 11000'. I told him we had already passed 11000' (we were 10500'). We were instructed to climb to 12000' and turn 180 degree to a heading of 290 degree which we did immediately. We were then vectored for a time, given a descent to 10000' and handed off to next controller. Things that could have prevented this are an earlier descent to have time to prepare and set up, change the det ATIS frequency so it isn't so difficult to get and if we looked like we weren't going to make the altitude why didn't the controller question us. Supplemental information from acn 136344. The controller directed a climb back to 12000' MSL. He got real upset and directed a 360 degree. I don't think there was a conflict.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ACR MLG UNDERSHOOTS CROSSING RESTRICTION IN DESCENT.

Narrative: ENRTE ON A FLT FROM STL TO DET WE WERE AT CRUISE ALT, CLRED TO CROSS CRATR AT 10000'. CAPT, WHO WAS FLYING, STARTED SETTING UP THE VOR'S FOR CRATR AND BEGAN TO CALCULATE A DSCNT. I WENT OFF TO GET THE ATIS. I COULDN'T RECEIVE IT SO I CAME BACK ON AND QUESTIONED THE CAPT ABOUT STARTING THE DSCNT, AT WHICH TIME HE DID. I BEGAN TO CALCULATE THE DSCNT AND REALIZED WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO START DOWN IMMEDIATELY IN ORDER TO MAKE THE RESTRICTION WITH A NORMAL DSCNT. I AGAIN WENT OFF TO GET ATIS AND TOOK A FEW MINS TO GET IT AS THE DET ATIS AND ORD GND ARE THE SAME FREQ. WHEN I CAME BACK I REALIZED THE CAPT WASN'T GOING TO MAKE IT DOWN IN TIME. I STARTED TO SAY SOMETHING, BUT ATC QUESTIONED OUR ALT AS WE WERE PASSING CRATR AT 12000'. I WAS A LITTLE STARTLED AS I HAD BEEN OFF FREQ. THEY CALLED AND TOLD US TO LEVEL OFF AT 12000' BEFORE I COULD ANSWER HIM AT WHICH TIME WE WERE OUT OF 11000'. I TOLD HIM WE HAD ALREADY PASSED 11000' (WE WERE 10500'). WE WERE INSTRUCTED TO CLB TO 12000' AND TURN 180 DEG TO A HDG OF 290 DEG WHICH WE DID IMMEDIATELY. WE WERE THEN VECTORED FOR A TIME, GIVEN A DSCNT TO 10000' AND HANDED OFF TO NEXT CTLR. THINGS THAT COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS ARE AN EARLIER DSCNT TO HAVE TIME TO PREPARE AND SET UP, CHANGE THE DET ATIS FREQ SO IT ISN'T SO DIFFICULT TO GET AND IF WE LOOKED LIKE WE WEREN'T GOING TO MAKE THE ALT WHY DIDN'T THE CTLR QUESTION US. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 136344. THE CTLR DIRECTED A CLB BACK TO 12000' MSL. HE GOT REAL UPSET AND DIRECTED A 360 DEG. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS A CONFLICT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.