ARTCC radar controller advises flight crew that radar service is terminated, that they have egressed...

Attributes
ACN	280899
Time
Date	199408
Day	Sat
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : lrp
State Reference	PA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 7000 msl bound upper : 9000
Environment
Flight Conditions	Mixed
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B747-C/F
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	Other
Flight Phase	other
Route In Use	enroute airway : v210
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 60 flight time total : 6700 flight time type : 35
ASRS Report	280899
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 100 flight time total : 18000 flight time type : 75
ASRS Report	280900
Events
Anomaly	non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure non adherence other other anomaly other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other controllera
Resolutory Action	none taken : unable
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

I was the PF and first officer operating from sdf to phl. After entering ZNY airspace we were told to plan on holding at bucks intersection. We were then told to hold as published at bucks intersection with an efc of XY20Z. We entered holding at about XX45Z. Then our efc was increased to XY30Z, about 50 min holding time. For fuel conservation, the captain elected and instructed me to hold clean at zero flap maneuvering speed for our B-747-100 (227 KTS at our weight of 555000 pounds). After our second turn in holding the controller told a flight dc-9 (who was 1000 ft below us) to watch his holding pattern and correct. The controller told us the same thing the next time around. The captain advised the controller that we were on course, but would check again. After around the fourth circuit in holding, we were told by the controller we were north of course 5 mi. We were always on the 104 degree radial from lrp VOR inbound to bucks intersection (26 DME) and then turned outbound. We were covering the same track as 2 other aircraft holding below us. After holding and in phl approach, the controller told us to call ZNY. The captain called and spoke to mr. X (shift supervisor) who advised us that we had violated protected airspace of the holding pattern at bucks intersection. This was surprising for various reasons, the controller handling us told us that radar contact was terminated. If we had left protected holding pattern airspace, in the interest of safety and part of the controller's job, we should have been advised of the exact problem and possibly even a corrective action. We were on the published radial, turned the proper direction and at the proper DME on every circuit in holding. I believe a controller would be negligent of his duties if he didn't advise us that we left protected airspace. It is all of our responsibilities to help each other out. Also, we should have advised the controller that we needed to hold at 227 KTS, not 210 KTS for fuel conservation reasons.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ARTCC RADAR CTLR ADVISES FLC THAT RADAR SVC IS TERMINATED, THAT THEY HAVE EGRESSED THE BOUNDARIES OF THEIR PROTECTED AIRSPACE AROUND THE HOLDING PATTERN.

Narrative: I WAS THE PF AND FO OPERATING FROM SDF TO PHL. AFTER ENTERING ZNY AIRSPACE WE WERE TOLD TO PLAN ON HOLDING AT BUCKS INTXN. WE WERE THEN TOLD TO HOLD AS PUBLISHED AT BUCKS INTXN WITH AN EFC OF XY20Z. WE ENTERED HOLDING AT ABOUT XX45Z. THEN OUR EFC WAS INCREASED TO XY30Z, ABOUT 50 MIN HOLDING TIME. FOR FUEL CONSERVATION, THE CAPT ELECTED AND INSTRUCTED ME TO HOLD CLEAN AT ZERO FLAP MANEUVERING SPD FOR OUR B-747-100 (227 KTS AT OUR WT OF 555000 LBS). AFTER OUR SECOND TURN IN HOLDING THE CTLR TOLD A FLT DC-9 (WHO WAS 1000 FT BELOW US) TO WATCH HIS HOLDING PATTERN AND CORRECT. THE CTLR TOLD US THE SAME THING THE NEXT TIME AROUND. THE CAPT ADVISED THE CTLR THAT WE WERE ON COURSE, BUT WOULD CHK AGAIN. AFTER AROUND THE FOURTH CIRCUIT IN HOLDING, WE WERE TOLD BY THE CTLR WE WERE N OF COURSE 5 MI. WE WERE ALWAYS ON THE 104 DEG RADIAL FROM LRP VOR INBOUND TO BUCKS INTXN (26 DME) AND THEN TURNED OUTBOUND. WE WERE COVERING THE SAME TRACK AS 2 OTHER ACFT HOLDING BELOW US. AFTER HOLDING AND IN PHL APCH, THE CTLR TOLD US TO CALL ZNY. THE CAPT CALLED AND SPOKE TO MR. X (SHIFT SUPVR) WHO ADVISED US THAT WE HAD VIOLATED PROTECTED AIRSPACE OF THE HOLDING PATTERN AT BUCKS INTXN. THIS WAS SURPRISING FOR VARIOUS REASONS, THE CTLR HANDLING US TOLD US THAT RADAR CONTACT WAS TERMINATED. IF WE HAD LEFT PROTECTED HOLDING PATTERN AIRSPACE, IN THE INTEREST OF SAFETY AND PART OF THE CTLR'S JOB, WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE EXACT PROB AND POSSIBLY EVEN A CORRECTIVE ACTION. WE WERE ON THE PUBLISHED RADIAL, TURNED THE PROPER DIRECTION AND AT THE PROPER DME ON EVERY CIRCUIT IN HOLDING. I BELIEVE A CTLR WOULD BE NEGLIGENT OF HIS DUTIES IF HE DIDN'T ADVISE US THAT WE LEFT PROTECTED AIRSPACE. IT IS ALL OF OUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO HELP EACH OTHER OUT. ALSO, WE SHOULD HAVE ADVISED THE CTLR THAT WE NEEDED TO HOLD AT 227 KTS, NOT 210 KTS FOR FUEL CONSERVATION REASONS.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

ARTCC radar controller advises flight crew that radar service is terminated, that they have egressed the boundaries of their protected airspace around the holding pattern.