<< >> NASA ASRS Report 309945, July 1995

Speed deviation.

Attributes
ACN	309945
Time
Date	199507
Day	Thu
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : das airport : iah
State Reference	TX
Altitude	msl bound lower : 10000 msl bound upper : 10000
Environment
Flight Conditions	Mixed
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : iah
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	DC-9 30
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	cruise other descent other
Route In Use	arrival other arrival star : star enroute : on vectors
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 13000
ASRS Report	309945
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 5000 flight time type : 1000
ASRS Report	309940
Events
Anomaly	inflight encounter : weather non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other controllera
Resolutory Action	controller : issued new clearance other
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

Originally filed mem aex batsn, batsn 3 hou. Prior to aex and due to WX we had to deviate. We were then cleared direct to das (but no arrival). Over das, or shortly thereafter, we were cleared the das 3 arrival and to depart porch intersection on 190 degree heading for vectors runway 4 at hobby. Airspeed was still 290-300 KTS. At this time another controller came on and asked if we had our arrival chart out and that we were supposed to be at 250 KTS. My copilot responded, 'ok.' I picked up the microphone and told him that we had not been cleared the das 3 arrival till we were on top or slightly past das. Because it was behind me on the chart, of course, I didn't see it. Also, since the chart read 'cross das at 250 KTS and we were already past it at the time of clearance reception, we wondered after the fact whether we needed to comply. I called tower supervisor when I landed in hou and his opinion was that if I was past the fix then approach should have given us the speed reduction. I thanked him and hung up. Even though approach should have given us the speed (which, of course, they ultimately did) we probably could have questioned what speed they wanted. I will do this in the future if I'm faced with a similar circumstance. Supplemental information from acn 309940: a few mi past das a different controller's voice asked us. We immediately began a speed reduction. We then questioned the controller whether the restr applied to us since we were not cleared for the arrival till we were over or slightly past the VOR. The 1ST controller's voice responded there was not problem. We do not believe we violated any restrs but the tone of the controller (supervisor override) seemed to imply we had done something wrong. If they had wanted 250 KTS at daisetta they should have told us earlier to expect the arrival, even if they did not have the clearance for us yet. We also should have questioned them earlier as to what arrival to expect.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: SPD DEV.

Narrative: ORIGINALLY FILED MEM AEX BATSN, BATSN 3 HOU. PRIOR TO AEX AND DUE TO WX WE HAD TO DEVIATE. WE WERE THEN CLRED DIRECT TO DAS (BUT NO ARR). OVER DAS, OR SHORTLY THEREAFTER, WE WERE CLRED THE DAS 3 ARR AND TO DEPART PORCH INTXN ON 190 DEG HDG FOR VECTORS RWY 4 AT HOBBY. AIRSPD WAS STILL 290-300 KTS. AT THIS TIME ANOTHER CTLR CAME ON AND ASKED IF WE HAD OUR ARR CHART OUT AND THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE AT 250 KTS. MY COPLT RESPONDED, 'OK.' I PICKED UP THE MIKE AND TOLD HIM THAT WE HAD NOT BEEN CLRED THE DAS 3 ARR TILL WE WERE ON TOP OR SLIGHTLY PAST DAS. BECAUSE IT WAS BEHIND ME ON THE CHART, OF COURSE, I DIDN'T SEE IT. ALSO, SINCE THE CHART READ 'CROSS DAS AT 250 KTS AND WE WERE ALREADY PAST IT AT THE TIME OF CLRNC RECEPTION, WE WONDERED AFTER THE FACT WHETHER WE NEEDED TO COMPLY. I CALLED TWR SUPVR WHEN I LANDED IN HOU AND HIS OPINION WAS THAT IF I WAS PAST THE FIX THEN APCH SHOULD HAVE GIVEN US THE SPD REDUCTION. I THANKED HIM AND HUNG UP. EVEN THOUGH APCH SHOULD HAVE GIVEN US THE SPD (WHICH, OF COURSE, THEY ULTIMATELY DID) WE PROBABLY COULD HAVE QUESTIONED WHAT SPD THEY WANTED. I WILL DO THIS IN THE FUTURE IF I'M FACED WITH A SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCE. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 309940: A FEW MI PAST DAS A DIFFERENT CTLR'S VOICE ASKED US. WE IMMEDIATELY BEGAN A SPD REDUCTION. WE THEN QUESTIONED THE CTLR WHETHER THE RESTR APPLIED TO US SINCE WE WERE NOT CLRED FOR THE ARR TILL WE WERE OVER OR SLIGHTLY PAST THE VOR. THE 1ST CTLR'S VOICE RESPONDED THERE WAS NOT PROB. WE DO NOT BELIEVE WE VIOLATED ANY RESTRS BUT THE TONE OF THE CTLR (SUPVR OVERRIDE) SEEMED TO IMPLY WE HAD DONE SOMETHING WRONG. IF THEY HAD WANTED 250 KTS AT DAISETTA THEY SHOULD HAVE TOLD US EARLIER TO EXPECT THE ARR, EVEN IF THEY DID NOT HAVE THE CLRNC FOR US YET. WE ALSO SHOULD HAVE QUESTIONED THEM EARLIER AS TO WHAT ARR TO EXPECT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.