Near midair collision between a fokker F28 on a visual approach to a non tower airport just outside of the marker and a piper seneca making practice approachs approximately 300 ft below on the same heading. The seneca pilots observed the F28 as it passed them overhead and the F28 observed the seneca to the rear of them. The seneca did not have the transponder turned on so did not show up on the F28's TCASII.

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Attributes
ACN	404229
Time
Date	199806
Day	Tue
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	airport : bzn
State Reference	MT
Altitude	msl bound lower : 7300 msl bound upper : 7300
Environment
Flight Conditions	Mixed
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tower : pit
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	F28 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	descent : approach descent other
Route In Use	approach : visual arrival other
Flight Plan	IFR
Aircraft 2
Make Model Name	PA-34-200 Seneca I
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 91
Flight Phase	descent : approach
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 250 flight time total : 20000 flight time type : 6000
ASRS Report	404229
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : instrument pilot : commercial
Events
Anomaly	conflict : nmac non adherence : far other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : detected after the fact
Consequence	Other
Miss Distance	horizontal : 0 vertical : 300
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance

Narrative:

We were on a flight (IFR) in a fokker F28 at FL330 from sea to bzn. We had been in the clear most of the way but had to start an ILS runway 12 to get down through the clouds at bzn. ZLC cleared us for the ILS. Center had no other known traffic. We broke out at 9000 ft MSL. We reported runway in sight and ZLC cleared us for a visual and to go to advisory frequency. We saw no traffic on our TCASII but were advised by bzn unicom that there was a piper seneca doing practice ILS approachs. The seneca then reported his position as just outside of manni which is where we were. He then said that we had just gone by him and that we should watch out where we were going. I did not see him and do not know how close we got to him. I said over the radio 'do you have a transponder on?' he did not answer but an aircraft appeared on our TCASII about 30 seconds or so later to the right and behind us. We reported that we would make an upwind for a left downwind to follow the traffic. We came in behind him and landed. He continued to shoot approachs. He had been flying a few thousand ft below an overcast on an ILS used by acrs and other aircraft and did not have his transponder on or notify ATC that he was there. ATC would not have seen him on radar but we would have, and did, see his transponder on our TCASII.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: NMAC BTWN A FOKKER F28 ON A VISUAL APCH TO A NON TWR ARPT JUST OUTSIDE OF THE MARKER AND A PIPER SENECA MAKING PRACTICE APCHS APPROX 300 FT BELOW ON THE SAME HEADING. THE SENECA PLTS OBSERVED THE F28 AS IT PASSED THEM OVERHEAD AND THE F28 OBSERVED THE SENECA TO THE REAR OF THEM. THE SENECA DID NOT HAVE THE XPONDER TURNED ON SO DID NOT SHOW UP ON THE F28'S TCASII.

Narrative: WE WERE ON A FLT (IFR) IN A FOKKER F28 AT FL330 FROM SEA TO BZN. WE HAD BEEN IN THE CLR MOST OF THE WAY BUT HAD TO START AN ILS RWY 12 TO GET DOWN THROUGH THE CLOUDS AT BZN. ZLC CLRED US FOR THE ILS. CTR HAD NO OTHER KNOWN TFC. WE BROKE OUT AT 9000 FT MSL. WE RPTED RWY IN SIGHT AND ZLC CLRED US FOR A VISUAL AND TO GO TO ADVISORY FREQ. WE SAW NO TFC ON OUR TCASII BUT WERE ADVISED BY BZN UNICOM THAT THERE WAS A PIPER SENECA DOING PRACTICE ILS APCHS. THE SENECA THEN RPTED HIS POS AS JUST OUTSIDE OF MANNI WHICH IS WHERE WE WERE. HE THEN SAID THAT WE HAD JUST GONE BY HIM AND THAT WE SHOULD WATCH OUT WHERE WE WERE GOING. I DID NOT SEE HIM AND DO NOT KNOW HOW CLOSE WE GOT TO HIM. I SAID OVER THE RADIO 'DO YOU HAVE A XPONDER ON?' HE DID NOT ANSWER BUT AN ACFT APPEARED ON OUR TCASII ABOUT 30 SECONDS OR SO LATER TO THE R AND BEHIND US. WE RPTED THAT WE WOULD MAKE AN UPWIND FOR A L DOWNWIND TO FOLLOW THE TFC. WE CAME IN BEHIND HIM AND LANDED. HE CONTINUED TO SHOOT APCHS. HE HAD BEEN FLYING A FEW THOUSAND FT BELOW AN OVCST ON AN ILS USED BY ACRS AND OTHER ACFT AND DID NOT HAVE HIS XPONDER ON OR NOTIFY ATC THAT HE WAS THERE. ATC WOULD NOT HAVE SEEN HIM ON RADAR BUT WE WOULD HAVE, AND DID, SEE HIS XPONDER ON OUR TCASII.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.