<< >> NASA ASRS Report 450443, September 1999

A B757 was given a descent altitude followed moments later by a STAR, without an altitude restr, to lax. The aircraft descended so as to meet the STAR altitudes.

Attributes
ACN	450443
Time
Date	199909
Day	Sat
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	intersection : civet
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 21700 msl bound upper : 24000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	artcc : zla.artcc
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B757 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	other
Flight Phase	cruise : enroute altitude change
Route In Use	arrival : profile descent
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : flight engineer pilot : cfi pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 10500 flight time type : 900
ASRS Report	450443
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : commercial pilot : instrument pilot : multi engine
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude
Independent Detector	other controllera
Resolutory Action	none taken : detected after the fact
Supplementary
Problem Areas	Flight Crew Human Performance ATC Human Performance
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

I was the PNF. Approximately 60 mi east of civet, we were cleared pilot's discretion to FL240. After starting descent, we were cleared 'direct civet, civet 4 arrival.' I put 14000 ft in the altitude alert window to confirm with the crossing requirements (civet at or above 14000 ft and below 17000 ft). Leaving FL220, the controller asked our altitude. I replied FL217. He told us that we were only cleared to FL240. He then gave us FL190. There were no traffic conflicts. Our feeling is that if we were cleared the arrival and the initial fix requires us to be between 14000 ft and 17000 ft, I believe that I must descend to be at those altitudes unless I was given 'routing only.' am I on the civet arrival at FL390 over civet?'

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: A B757 WAS GIVEN A DSCNT ALT FOLLOWED MOMENTS LATER BY A STAR, WITHOUT AN ALT RESTR, TO LAX. THE ACFT DSNDED SO AS TO MEET THE STAR ALTS.

Narrative: I WAS THE PNF. APPROX 60 MI E OF CIVET, WE WERE CLRED PLT'S DISCRETION TO FL240. AFTER STARTING DSCNT, WE WERE CLRED 'DIRECT CIVET, CIVET 4 ARR.' I PUT 14000 FT IN THE ALT ALERT WINDOW TO CONFIRM WITH THE XING REQUIREMENTS (CIVET AT OR ABOVE 14000 FT AND BELOW 17000 FT). LEAVING FL220, THE CTLR ASKED OUR ALT. I REPLIED FL217. HE TOLD US THAT WE WERE ONLY CLRED TO FL240. HE THEN GAVE US FL190. THERE WERE NO TFC CONFLICTS. OUR FEELING IS THAT IF WE WERE CLRED THE ARR AND THE INITIAL FIX REQUIRES US TO BE BTWN 14000 FT AND 17000 FT, I BELIEVE THAT I MUST DSND TO BE AT THOSE ALTS UNLESS I WAS GIVEN 'ROUTING ONLY.' AM I ON THE CIVET ARR AT FL390 OVER CIVET?'

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.