An air carrier flight crew is confused as to their clearance on the civet STAR when the controller had cleared them for the arrival and later, upon being questioned by crew, says they had been cleared for the descent, at civet, lax, ca.

Home

Browse by month

Random

Latest

About

Contact

Attributes
ACN	450857
Time
Date	199909
Day	Wed
Local Time Of Day	1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference	intersection : civet
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl single value : 19000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Night
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	artcc : zla.artcc
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	other other vortac
Flight Phase	descent : approach descent : intermediate altitude
Route In Use	arrival star : civet 4
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 13500 flight time type : 6000
ASRS Report	450857
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : commercial pilot : instrument pilot : multi engine
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : undershoot non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	other
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Problem Areas	ATC Human Performance Airspace Structure Flight Crew Human Performance
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance

Narrative:

There was confusion between the cockpit crew and ATC as to whether the crew was actually cleared for the profile descent on the civet arrival. ATC 'cleared us for the civet arrival' to lax. We did not understand that to mean cleared to descend and to what altitude. Upon questioning the controller as to when we could descend, they said 'you were cleared to descend.' by this time we would be high on the crossing restr at civet. The ATC controller said ok, that we will be ok to be high on the civet profile. Solution: when ATC clears us for the civet arrival, they should also clear us for the descent out of our current altitude. Make it clear and eliminate the confusion!

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: AN ACR FLC IS CONFUSED AS TO THEIR CLRNC ON THE CIVET STAR WHEN THE CTLR HAD CLRED THEM FOR THE ARR AND LATER, UPON BEING QUESTIONED BY CREW, SAYS THEY HAD BEEN CLRED FOR THE DSCNT, AT CIVET, LAX, CA.

Narrative: THERE WAS CONFUSION BTWN THE COCKPIT CREW AND ATC AS TO WHETHER THE CREW WAS ACTUALLY CLRED FOR THE PROFILE DSCNT ON THE CIVET ARR. ATC 'CLRED US FOR THE CIVET ARR' TO LAX. WE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT TO MEAN CLRED TO DSND AND TO WHAT ALT. UPON QUESTIONING THE CTLR AS TO WHEN WE COULD DSND, THEY SAID 'YOU WERE CLRED TO DSND.' BY THIS TIME WE WOULD BE HIGH ON THE XING RESTR AT CIVET. THE ATC CTLR SAID OK, THAT WE WILL BE OK TO BE HIGH ON THE CIVET PROFILE. SOLUTION: WHEN ATC CLRS US FOR THE CIVET ARR, THEY SHOULD ALSO CLR US FOR THE DSCNT OUT OF OUR CURRENT ALT. MAKE IT CLR AND ELIMINATE THE CONFUSION!

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.