Narrative:

This regards departure clrnces at las. The two departures we usually get out of las when heading east (I think they are the cowboy and trailer departures) require crossing the initial departure fix at or below 7000 ft. The initial altitude on the pre departure clearance is 7000 ft. It is common for the departure controller to clear you to a higher altitude after initial contact. It is never clear whether this cancels the crossing restriction or not. If the departure controller had given you the restriction initially; then subsequently re-cleared you without the restriction; the restriction would not apply. But here the restriction is on the chart. The same rules about re-clearing probably still apply; but it is unclear. I always confirm that we are cleared to climb unrestricted. I usually get a sarcastic response from the controller. On my last departure there; my copilot said; 'confirm we are cleared to 9000 ft unrestricted.' to which the controller; rather then merely confirming that; said sarcastically; 'no restriction was stated.' I hear many other airline crews asking for the same confirmation/clarification; and the controller response usually sounds annoyed or sarcastic. What bothers me about this is that the controllers know that many crews are going to be unsure about this clearance. They hear the requests for clarification every day. Yet they continue to give the same clearance anyway; and then criticize the pilots for doing what we are supposed to do; ask for clarification if we are unsure about a clearance. They work there every day. We only go in there occasionally. Many times at other places; in similar circumstances; I have queried the controller about a similar clearance; usually on a descent; and they have responded that they still want us to observe the crossing restriction. All they need to do at las is insert the word 'unrestricted' into their climb clearance. Yet because they technically don't have to say that; they don't; even though they know it causes confusion every day.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: B757 FLC EXPERIENCED CONFUSION REGARDING LAS DEP CTLR'S ALT CLRNC AND ALT RESTRICTIONS ON PDC CLRNC.

Narrative: THIS REGARDS DEP CLRNCES AT LAS. THE TWO DEPS WE USUALLY GET OUT OF LAS WHEN HEADING E (I THINK THEY ARE THE COWBOY AND TRAILER DEPS) REQUIRE CROSSING THE INITIAL DEP FIX AT OR BELOW 7000 FT. THE INITIAL ALT ON THE PDC IS 7000 FT. IT IS COMMON FOR THE DEP CTLR TO CLEAR YOU TO A HIGHER ALT AFTER INITIAL CONTACT. IT IS NEVER CLEAR WHETHER THIS CANCELS THE CROSSING RESTRICTION OR NOT. IF THE DEP CTLR HAD GIVEN YOU THE RESTRICTION INITIALLY; THEN SUBSEQUENTLY RE-CLEARED YOU WITHOUT THE RESTRICTION; THE RESTRICTION WOULD NOT APPLY. BUT HERE THE RESTRICTION IS ON THE CHART. THE SAME RULES ABOUT RE-CLEARING PROBABLY STILL APPLY; BUT IT IS UNCLEAR. I ALWAYS CONFIRM THAT WE ARE CLEARED TO CLB UNRESTRICTED. I USUALLY GET A SARCASTIC RESPONSE FROM THE CTLR. ON MY LAST DEP THERE; MY COPLT SAID; 'CONFIRM WE ARE CLRED TO 9000 FT UNRESTRICTED.' TO WHICH THE CTLR; RATHER THEN MERELY CONFIRMING THAT; SAID SARCASTICALLY; 'NO RESTRICTION WAS STATED.' I HEAR MANY OTHER AIRLINE CREWS ASKING FOR THE SAME CONFIRMATION/CLARIFICATION; AND THE CTLR RESPONSE USUALLY SOUNDS ANNOYED OR SARCASTIC. WHAT BOTHERS ME ABOUT THIS IS THAT THE CTLRS KNOW THAT MANY CREWS ARE GOING TO BE UNSURE ABOUT THIS CLRNC. THEY HEAR THE REQUESTS FOR CLARIFICATION EVERY DAY. YET THEY CONTINUE TO GIVE THE SAME CLRNC ANYWAY; AND THEN CRITICIZE THE PLTS FOR DOING WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO; ASK FOR CLARIFICATION IF WE ARE UNSURE ABOUT A CLRNC. THEY WORK THERE EVERY DAY. WE ONLY GO IN THERE OCCASIONALLY. MANY TIMES AT OTHER PLACES; IN SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES; I HAVE QUERIED THE CTLR ABOUT A SIMILAR CLRNC; USUALLY ON A DSCNT; AND THEY HAVE RESPONDED THAT THEY STILL WANT US TO OBSERVE THE CROSSING RESTRICTION. ALL THEY NEED TO DO AT LAS IS INSERT THE WORD 'UNRESTRICTED' INTO THEIR CLB CLRNC. YET BECAUSE THEY TECHNICALLY DON'T HAVE TO SAY THAT; THEY DON'T; EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW IT CAUSES CONFUSION EVERY DAY.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.