Airspeed heading and track deviation during IOE time in large transport.

Attributes
ACN	145243
Time
Date	199005
Day	Fri
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : col airport : ewr
State Reference	NJ
Altitude	msl bound lower : 6000 msl bound upper : 8000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : n90
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Large Transport, Low Wing, 3 Turbojet Eng
Flight Phase	climbout : intermediate altitude cruise other cruise other
Route In Use	departure other departure sid : sid enroute : on vectors
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : second officer
Qualification	pilot : commercial pilot : flight engineer pilot : instrument pilot : cfi
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 240 flight time total : 4000 flight time type : 1700
ASRS Report	145243
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain instruction : trainee
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 75 flight time total : 25000 flight time type : 16
ASRS Report	145130
Events
Anomaly	inflight encounter other non adherence : clearance non adherence : far other anomaly other anomaly other other spatial deviation
Independent Detector	other controllera other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	other
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation other

Narrative:

During climb out in an large transport, type Y, the indicated airspeed registered in excess of 250 KTS by about 2000' below 10000' MSL. The captain occupying the left seat was new to the large transport, the ewr departure area and this was his first trip in an large transport, type Y. Additionally, the autoplt was giving very slow responses to pitch commands which in my opinion was the primary reason for the excess airspeed. The IOE ck captain in the right seat was aware of the high speed but was letting the PF work through the problem. To prevent a recurrence, the PF should disconnect the autoplt and handfly the aircraft until such time speed and altitude are not as critical as they are below 10000'. Also the IOE instrument might have been more vocal in bringing the high airspeed to the PF's attention. Supplemental information from acn 145130. We had been flying type X on every leg of this IOE training flight. My first exposure was this morning, may, 1980. We were then cleared up to 17000'. When I engaged the nose up position, the pitch change went from level to about a +300 FPM climb, probably. I say probably, because when I engaged the heading select switch, or rather what I thought was the heading select, I engaged altitude hold which is in the exact location on this aircraft as the heading select switch is on the type X on which I had been training. The next thing I hear is my IOE captain very gently saying, 'airspeed, airspeed.' supplemental information from acn 145128. South of coyle VOR, PF (IOE student) drifted off course slightly. I pointed out from our computer flight plan that the winds were a 100 KT direct crosswind. Student corrected even greater than his 25 degree correction and we reintercepted course. Conducting IOE in a different model aircraft in the very very demanding nyc area is quite a challenge. There sometimes is a very fine line between letting a student push a limit and learn and taking the aircraft away. Should I have taken the aircraft?

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: AIRSPEED HEADING AND TRACK DEVIATION DURING IOE TIME IN LGT.

Narrative: DURING CLB OUT IN AN LGT, TYPE Y, THE INDICATED AIRSPD REGISTERED IN EXCESS OF 250 KTS BY ABOUT 2000' BELOW 10000' MSL. THE CAPT OCCUPYING THE LEFT SEAT WAS NEW TO THE LGT, THE EWR DEP AREA AND THIS WAS HIS FIRST TRIP IN AN LGT, TYPE Y. ADDITIONALLY, THE AUTOPLT WAS GIVING VERY SLOW RESPONSES TO PITCH COMMANDS WHICH IN MY OPINION WAS THE PRIMARY REASON FOR THE EXCESS AIRSPD. THE IOE CK CAPT IN THE RIGHT SEAT WAS AWARE OF THE HIGH SPD BUT WAS LETTING THE PF WORK THROUGH THE PROB. TO PREVENT A RECURRENCE, THE PF SHOULD DISCONNECT THE AUTOPLT AND HANDFLY THE ACFT UNTIL SUCH TIME SPD AND ALT ARE NOT AS CRITICAL AS THEY ARE BELOW 10000'. ALSO THE IOE INSTR MIGHT HAVE BEEN MORE VOCAL IN BRINGING THE HIGH AIRSPD TO THE PF'S ATTN. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 145130. WE HAD BEEN FLYING TYPE X ON EVERY LEG OF THIS IOE TRNING FLT. MY FIRST EXPOSURE WAS THIS MORNING, MAY, 1980. WE WERE THEN CLRED UP TO 17000'. WHEN I ENGAGED THE NOSE UP POS, THE PITCH CHANGE WENT FROM LEVEL TO ABOUT A +300 FPM CLB, PROBABLY. I SAY PROBABLY, BECAUSE WHEN I ENGAGED THE HDG SELECT SWITCH, OR RATHER WHAT I THOUGHT WAS THE HDG SELECT, I ENGAGED ALT HOLD WHICH IS IN THE EXACT LOCATION ON THIS ACFT AS THE HDG SELECT SWITCH IS ON THE TYPE X ON WHICH I HAD BEEN TRNING. THE NEXT THING I HEAR IS MY IOE CAPT VERY GENTLY SAYING, 'AIRSPD, AIRSPD.' SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 145128. S OF COYLE VOR, PF (IOE STUDENT) DRIFTED OFF COURSE SLIGHTLY. I POINTED OUT FROM OUR COMPUTER FLT PLAN THAT THE WINDS WERE A 100 KT DIRECT XWIND. STUDENT CORRECTED EVEN GREATER THAN HIS 25 DEG CORRECTION AND WE REINTERCEPTED COURSE. CONDUCTING IOE IN A DIFFERENT MODEL ACFT IN THE VERY VERY DEMANDING NYC AREA IS QUITE A CHALLENGE. THERE SOMETIMES IS A VERY FINE LINE BTWN LETTING A STUDENT PUSH A LIMIT AND LEARN AND TAKING THE ACFT AWAY. SHOULD I HAVE TAKEN THE ACFT?

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.