Flight crew of large transport has clearance confusion due to controller phraseology and descends be...

Attributes
ACN	374532
Time
Date	199707
Day	Sun
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	airport : lax
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 8000 msl bound upper : 8000
Environment
Flight Conditions	Mixed
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : lax
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Commercial Fixed Wing
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	Other Other
Flight Phase	descent : approach landing : go around
Route In Use	arrival other enroute : on vectors
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 195 flight time total : 5000 flight time type : 2100
ASRS Report	374532
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : commercial
Events
Anomaly	other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other controllera other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : unable other
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	other

Narrative:

On civet one into lax -- was cleared 'civet one ILS runway 25L' since we were not cleared for only the civet one, nor were we cleared for the civet one expect ILS runway 25L we felt confident that our clearance was for both the civet one and ILS runway 25L approach. Our flight path complied with all crossing altitudes and the numerous speed reductions associated with heavy arrival traffic. Just passing fuelr we were given a spit out heading of 180 degrees and the controller asked us if we were at 8000 ft cause he showed us at 7800 ft. The fuelr crossing is 8000 ft and since we had crossed that fix we were just beginning a descent to cross gaate at 5000 ft. With the given pattern turn out and the controller's inquiry regarding 8000 ft we initiated an immediate return to that altitude from 7650 ft. We still feel we had a clearance that allowed all associated dscnts on the STAR and the runway 25L ILS. If we were in error our total altitude deviation was approximately 300-400 ft. Controling throughout this arrival and approach borders on 'unsat' and resulted in an eventual go around due to arrival at a VFR point approximately 1.5 mi from the runway way too high to land safely. After the turn-out from the pattern, we were given a series of vectors to re-intercept but no reasonable descent clearance. When finally given approach and descent clearance (descend to cross hunda at 3500 ft) we were approximately 1-1.3 mi from hunda. This result in our crossing hunda at 7200 ft using our best effort and all means available to us. (3700 ft above GS altitude approximately 12 mi out.) even after our go around and our return vectors for the ILS runway 25L, the controller kept us at 4000 ft and gave us turns to intercept the localizer and approach clearance that brought us to point approximately 10 mi off lax -- 2- 2.5 mi inside hunda where the published GS intercept altitude is 3499 ft. A morning of fair to poor controling.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: FLC OF LGT HAS CLRNC CONFUSION DUE TO CTLR PHRASEOLOGY AND DSNDS BELOW ALT AT WHICH APCH CTLR WANTS HIM TO BE. ON THE GAR ACFT IS KEPT HIGH, ABOVE PUBLISHED GS INTERCEPT ALT.

Narrative: ON CIVET ONE INTO LAX -- WAS CLRED 'CIVET ONE ILS RWY 25L' SINCE WE WERE NOT CLRED FOR ONLY THE CIVET ONE, NOR WERE WE CLRED FOR THE CIVET ONE EXPECT ILS RWY 25L WE FELT CONFIDENT THAT OUR CLRNC WAS FOR BOTH THE CIVET ONE AND ILS RWY 25L APCH. OUR FLT PATH COMPLIED WITH ALL XING ALTS AND THE NUMEROUS SPD REDUCTIONS ASSOCIATED WITH HVY ARR TFC. JUST PASSING FUELR WE WERE GIVEN A SPIT OUT HDG OF 180 DEGS AND THE CTLR ASKED US IF WE WERE AT 8000 FT CAUSE HE SHOWED US AT 7800 FT. THE FUELR XING IS 8000 FT AND SINCE WE HAD CROSSED THAT FIX WE WERE JUST BEGINNING A DSCNT TO CROSS GAATE AT 5000 FT. WITH THE GIVEN PATTERN TURN OUT AND THE CTLR'S INQUIRY REGARDING 8000 FT WE INITIATED AN IMMEDIATE RETURN TO THAT ALT FROM 7650 FT. WE STILL FEEL WE HAD A CLRNC THAT ALLOWED ALL ASSOCIATED DSCNTS ON THE STAR AND THE RWY 25L ILS. IF WE WERE IN ERROR OUR TOTAL ALTDEV WAS APPROX 300-400 FT. CTLING THROUGHOUT THIS ARR AND APCH BORDERS ON 'UNSAT' AND RESULTED IN AN EVENTUAL GAR DUE TO ARR AT A VFR POINT APPROX 1.5 MI FROM THE RWY WAY TOO HIGH TO LAND SAFELY. AFTER THE TURN-OUT FROM THE PATTERN, WE WERE GIVEN A SERIES OF VECTORS TO RE-INTERCEPT BUT NO REASONABLE DSCNT CLRNC. WHEN FINALLY GIVEN APCH AND DSCNT CLRNC (DSND TO CROSS HUNDA AT 3500 FT) WE WERE APPROX 1-1.3 MI FROM HUNDA. THIS RESULT IN OUR XING HUNDA AT 7200 FT USING OUR BEST EFFORT AND ALL MEANS AVAILABLE TO US. (3700 FT ABOVE GS ALT APPROX 12 MI OUT.) EVEN AFTER OUR GAR AND OUR RETURN VECTORS FOR THE ILS RWY 25L, THE CTLR KEPT US AT 4000 FT AND GAVE US TURNS TO INTERCEPT THE LOC AND APCH CLRNC THAT BROUGHT US TO POINT APPROX 10 MI OFF LAX -- 2- 2.5 MI INSIDE HUNDA WHERE THE PUBLISHED GS INTERCEPT ALT IS 3499 FT. A MORNING OF FAIR TO POOR CTLING.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

Flight crew of large transport has clearance confusion due to controller phraseology and descends below altitude at which approach controller wants him to be. On the go around aircraft is kept high, above published GS intercept altitude.