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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 92785 |
Time | |
Date | 198808 |
Day | Thu |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | atc facility : psp |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 14000 msl bound upper : 16000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Navigation In Use | Other |
Flight Phase | descent other |
Route In Use | enroute : direct enroute airway : v372 |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer pilot : cfi |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 225 flight time total : 5000 flight time type : 1100 |
ASRS Report | 92785 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 250 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 220 |
ASRS Report | 92863 |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : undershoot non adherence : clearance |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : insufficient time |
Consequence | Other |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Air Traffic Incident | Inter Facility Coordination Failure other |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Narrative:
En route to lgb we were given 2 rertes, each one ending in psp direct sli direct lgb. Upon the handoff to the low altitude controller over psp we were told to cross bands intersection (psp 258 degrees to 21 DME) at 14000 ft. Since we were at FL240, this meant a high rate of descent was necessary to accomplish the crossing. To complicate matters we could not locate bands on the high altitude chart (our clearance was direct) and I had to ask the controller it's location and explain our previous clearance was direct. The controller now cleared us to lgb via 'V372 sli direct lgb cross bands at and maintain 14000 ft.' the captain was flying while I fished out the chart and found V372, bands and the dog leg via hof. At this point the captain had full speed brakes and a barber pole descent, but we still missed our crossing by .5-1 mi. Prevention: pilots can only navigation on the basis of their ATC clearance. It takes time to read charts, tune radios, plan dscnts, etc. A last min change to an ATC clearance coupled with a tight crossing restriction overloads the crew (10000 ft/21 mi). For our part, when ATC queried our ability to cross bands at 14000 ft I looked at the captain and he nodded yes. I replied 'we could.' given the high rate of descent (6000 FPM) we should have said no. Supplemental information from acn 92863: we got in trouble because the low center never gave the high center controller the planned route of flight or altitude restrictions so we were not able to plan ahead. We don't fly into lgb often (my first time) and thus were not familiar with their restrictions or rtes.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR MLG ALT DEVIATION CROSSING RESTRICTION NOT MET.
Narrative: ENRTE TO LGB WE WERE GIVEN 2 RERTES, EACH ONE ENDING IN PSP DIRECT SLI DIRECT LGB. UPON THE HDOF TO THE LOW ALT CTLR OVER PSP WE WERE TOLD TO CROSS BANDS INTXN (PSP 258 DEGS TO 21 DME) AT 14000 FT. SINCE WE WERE AT FL240, THIS MEANT A HIGH RATE OF DSCNT WAS NECESSARY TO ACCOMPLISH THE XING. TO COMPLICATE MATTERS WE COULD NOT LOCATE BANDS ON THE HIGH ALT CHART (OUR CLRNC WAS DIRECT) AND I HAD TO ASK THE CTLR IT'S LOCATION AND EXPLAIN OUR PREVIOUS CLRNC WAS DIRECT. THE CTLR NOW CLRED US TO LGB VIA 'V372 SLI DIRECT LGB CROSS BANDS AT AND MAINTAIN 14000 FT.' THE CAPT WAS FLYING WHILE I FISHED OUT THE CHART AND FOUND V372, BANDS AND THE DOG LEG VIA HOF. AT THIS POINT THE CAPT HAD FULL SPEED BRAKES AND A BARBER POLE DSCNT, BUT WE STILL MISSED OUR XING BY .5-1 MI. PREVENTION: PLTS CAN ONLY NAV ON THE BASIS OF THEIR ATC CLRNC. IT TAKES TIME TO READ CHARTS, TUNE RADIOS, PLAN DSCNTS, ETC. A LAST MIN CHANGE TO AN ATC CLRNC COUPLED WITH A TIGHT XING RESTRICTION OVERLOADS THE CREW (10000 FT/21 MI). FOR OUR PART, WHEN ATC QUERIED OUR ABILITY TO CROSS BANDS AT 14000 FT I LOOKED AT THE CAPT AND HE NODDED YES. I REPLIED 'WE COULD.' GIVEN THE HIGH RATE OF DSCNT (6000 FPM) WE SHOULD HAVE SAID NO. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 92863: WE GOT IN TROUBLE BECAUSE THE LOW CTR NEVER GAVE THE HIGH CTR CTLR THE PLANNED RTE OF FLT OR ALT RESTRICTIONS SO WE WERE NOT ABLE TO PLAN AHEAD. WE DON'T FLY INTO LGB OFTEN (MY FIRST TIME) AND THUS WERE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THEIR RESTRICTIONS OR RTES.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.